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Regular
Location: Lavallette, NJ 08735 | Hi, I replaced non-original carb with more-or-less original Carter Thermoquad. from 1976 (coach is 1973). I've no idea what transpired to get the (what was) existing edelbrock in there. Thru some research, it is apparent that there are infinite setups on the thermoquads. Anyway, after hooking everything back up, there is one port towards top driver's side, that sticks out, and goes nowhere (On some models, not on others). If I cover it while running, engine wants to stall (I think port is sucking); otherwise, it's just open to compartment. I'm wondering if this should have a hose running to crankcase ventilation, as well as the 2 others that do (towards bottom of carb). I'm thinking/hoping I can acquire another "cap" (breather?) that goes into valve cover with an additional port for that. IF THAT MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL TO DO SO. Anyone have any input on that? Thanks again, Robert |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | A PICTURE and a arrow, finger, pencil, screw driver pointing at the MYSTERY PORT would really help us help you.
Otherwise, I'm sure one of these pictures will help you:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Thermoquad+ports&rls=com.microso...
Pick any one you like. Lou #120 |
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Regular
Location: Lavallette, NJ 08735 | well, in that link, the first actual color photograph of carb shows the barb coming off the left side top. It just doesn't seem right that it goes to nothing; engine will stall if covered. I'll probably just play with it on a nice warm day. Oh, wait, that won't be until April! |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | If you had copied and included the Link in your reply that goes to whatever picture you are talking about then I could look at the same thing you are looking at.
Are you looking for some photo that has a big arrow to whatever port you are confused about that tells what that port is for, and nothing else ?
You not a mechanic are you ? Lou #120 |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | There are so many variants of the thermoquad, you are peeing in the wind if you do not know exactly what you have. If it has been rebuilt by a rebuilder like Cardone, they mix all the parts. The number on the outside means nothing. If you have a problem with a thermoquad, you usually have to take more than one action to correct it.
I have, in a box, a thermoquad rebuilt by Mr. Thermoquad, formally one of the most respected thermoquad minds around, until he got out of the business because of scarcity and cost of parts, and low demand. This carb was built from a collection of thermoquads for a 440-3 with top RPM of 5,000. I think I gave him about 20 thermoquads from Chrysler's and Dodge motor homes I had salvaged. I came to my senses before I installed it. This carb can be yours for $275 including shipping. I cannot offer any technical support. If your Edelbrock is a 1406 or 1411, I will trade even - front lower right as you face it has the number stamped on the mounting leg.
I put thermoquads in the same category as my first wife, something I should have avoided at all costs.
The bodies supposedly warp from heat, and if you do not know the history, you have no idea what you have. If you are adept at rebuilding and tuning them, and have enough spare parts, I understand them to be a real performer. I have never had any luck with them. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | The one thing I don't like about the thremoquad and a couple of other 4 barrel carbs for the FMC and other 15,000 pound sleds is way the secondary is operated. When the throttle is opened far enough the secondary throttle blades open but a secondary air valve acts like a choke to richen the mixture while the fuel flow through the secondary metering system catches up with the air flow. On a heavy pull It can just run too rich and not help the engine performance. Most carter and carter based carbs work with this sort of secondary enrichment system. There are carbs out there that work without the choke style secondary enrichment. This is a good reason to look at a fuel injection system. Bill |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | I think most of the Carter/Edelbrock carburetors are inferior to Holley's, and almost any of the other higher performance carburetors. BUT, they are so easy to set up and install, they often provide a satisfactory, less than optimal solution, for Chrysler/Dodge-based RV engines. If you enjoy working with carburetors, Carter/Edelbrock's may not be your choice.
I just bought a #3606 Edelbrock "Self Learning" FI system for #589. The engine only has about 1,800 miles on it. Bill is 100% right to highlight the special needs of engines working in the FMC environment. After talking with engineers at Holley, FAST, MSD, and Edelbrock, I felt that the Edelbrock would be the simplest to install and maintain. All of the vendors liked the mini-reservoir concept that the model 3606 offers to avoid a fuel return line and assure a constant fuel supply. Two FI kit suppliers offered another vendor's reservoir as an option.
A major concern of mine is the way the Edelbrock system is set up and monitored. A tablet is used with a Bluetooth connection to tune the controller. Bluetooth is only designed for a 33 foot open air distance. I am working with Edelbrock to get a longer harness or get help in extending the one that came with the kit so I can mount the small control box inside the coach. I will keep the group informed.
Henry |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | I will install the Affordable Fuel Injection system on FMC #120, at half the cost of Edelbrock, Holley, MSD, Fast, and Slow:
http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/ixxocart/products/Mopar_TB...
Barf guy with a 454 Chevy did a conversion with good write up and pictures:
http://www.barthmobile.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3431087061/m/31739738...
Zoom, Zoom, Lou #120 |
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Veteran
Location: Oslo Norway | This is one diagram showing TQ ports:
Stay cool
Kjetil
Edited by Duramaxer 2014-11-12 7:58 PM
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Regular
Location: Lavallette, NJ 08735 | http://www.carburetorsandmore.com/afb.htm is the photo I was talking about, and appears to be bowl vent (G), based on above diagram. And, no, Lou; I thought I'd very humbly, made it quite clear, that I'm not a mechanic, in just about any post I'd ever made. I'm not a smart man, just ambitious. I equate my love for this damn thing, to that of any woman I've ever invested myself in: I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, nor how to make any sense of the object of my attention; but I keep trying... ...I'm in love...
"It is a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" - Everett McGill |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | First line in your initial question, "Hi, I replaced non-original carb with more-or-less original Carter Thermoquad." NOT !
You replaced it with a Carter AFB. No wonder we couldn't figure out what you were talking about.
We all respond and send you pictures of the carb you SAY YOU INSTALLED, and then we, or maybe just me, were not helping you ? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !!!!!
The old bowl vent trick huh ? Well, it is NOT a trick. EVERY carburetor has a bowl vent ! That is where the atmospheric pressure goes into the bowl to force the gasoline out the low pressure area caused by the venturi. That damn Bernoulli guy again ! He tries to get into everything.
You willfully drove your 15,000 pound FMC thru traffic for 60 miles with essentially NO BRAKES . . . and then think it is a funny love story ?
You seem more interested in the spiritual qualities of yourself rather than the ball bearing qualities of your fellow man.
Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2014-11-21 12:32 PM
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Regular
Location: Lavallette, NJ 08735 | Wow, just don't know how to respond to that! So, Happy Thanksgiving! |
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Contributor
| Greetings, all! Was wondering what's involved in replacing the Thermoquad with an Edelbrock 1406. I've been advised to make the replacement and am assuming from Henry's input on this thread that the Edelbrock 1406 is a reasonable choice. Not looking for high performance. Just need to replace the worn Thermoquad rather than rebuilding it. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Do you know the difference in a square bore and a spread bore ?
Ready to buy a square bore to spread bore adapter (Edelbrock #2696 or #2697 Kit) ? Linkage adapter ?
Who advised you to use a #1406 ? Some one that has a $1406 to sell ?
Who advised you that your T-quad was so "worn" that it needs rebuilding ? Some one that has a #1406 to sell ?
Just what is "worn" ?
http://www.ebay.com/bhp/thermoquad-carburetor
Just askin' . Lou #120 |
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Contributor
| Hi, Lou! I don't have a clue as to the difference b/w the two bores, but I do enjoy learning. I'll Google it.
More than one mechanic, including your pal from Salem, Harry Day, has suggested that our current Thermoquad needs to be re-built or replaced.
The mechanic I use in Portland, Oregon stores the FMC for us and is excellent, but he's too busy with his Mini-Cooper restoration business (Jet Motors) to work on the coach. I'm going to try to find someone else in the Pacific Northwest to help with the final few things I need to make my coach dependable…and if anyone has a recommendation, it would be very welcome.
But meanwhile, I need to keep things simple for my mechanic so a replacement rather than a re-build of the carburetor is in order. If the Thermoquad you kindly sent my way on eBay is the right replacement for my standard 440 engine, I'll snap it up! Thanks very much for getting back on this, Lou. I'm still hoping to attend FMC 101 in Phoenix in the not-to-distant future... |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | There are over 125 T-Quads in the above E-bay listing . . . not one in particular.
Straight one for one replacement http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-210236.
Mini-Cooper restoration guy working on a FMC ? Hmmmmmm . . . .
Carburetors are like women . . . all shapes, sizes, and in the dark BEAUTIFUL ! Good luck with your mechanic search.
Lou #120 |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | I still have the thermoquad that was rebuilt for a 440 motor home for $275, and now have a used Edelbrock 1411 for the same price.
I like the 1406 better, but do not have one for sale.
Lou seem to have found a reasonable FI set up as well. I have not installed my Edelbrock FI system yet.
Henry |
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Contributor
| Tried to buy the carb on the Summit Racing site, but it went wonky. Is there another carb you could pick as a likely proper replacement? Your guidance is much appreciated and if the carburetor fits a Mini but not coach 428, that'll be fine. Regards! - Grant |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Copied that link from that page . . . and it did not work for me either. Screwy.
Go to http://www.summitracing.com/ and enter the word - thermoquad - in the Search Box at top left.
That will take you to a page with several T-quads. The one you want is the top one #210236.
Click on - More Detail - then click on - Check Application - where you will see many Chrysler 440s listed.
Go back to the page that has the carb you want and "ADD TO CART" and then Checkout.
You will get a "generic" T-quad jetted for a 440. Exactly for a FMC Motor Home ? No ! But damn close . . . it will be just fine.
(The other part numbers on the T-Quad page are for Mopar small blocks.)
$305 and Free Shipping.
Gas ON ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2015-05-09 6:55 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | A spread bore adapter would not be necessary to put a square bore carb on the original spread bore manifold for the thermoquad. You do have to make sure the square bore gasket you use seals between the carb and the bigger rear opening. I am hoping to put a square bore Holley from a 413 HT engine on a spread bore S.P.-2P. Edelbrock intake manifold, (Thank you Henry!) to run with the overdrive transmission that sits waiting to be installed. I believe the Holley is a 600 cfm. The 4106 should also be 600 cfm . The S.P.-2P. has very small runners to provide better low end performance. With overdrive my engine will need to produce the power in the lower rpm range than with the original transmission. Smaller camshaft is to be installed at same time. Also 413HT. Looking for peak torque in the 2100-2400 rpm range.
Bill |
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Contributor
| Thank you so much for the guidance, Lou. I've ordered the carb to be delivered Wednesday. I'll be taking the coach to a truck repair shop to make the swap. At the same time, the alternator is not charging and needs to be replaced. Can I assume that the truck repair shop will be able to order a replacement alternator easily…or is it a specialty unit that I should order like the carb so they'll have it on hand. Best regards! - Grant |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | I'm not real fond of the HUGE Leece-Neville Alternator and all the wiring and regulator that goes with it. Think you could WELD with it. That might have been SOA in the early 70s but it is overkill as far as I am concerned. I have no idea what Leece-Neville availability is, but think they are expensive. Must not be real good as the one on your FMC has failed. Never understood the big L-N Alternator in a vehicle that has a Gen-Set. Changing out the alternator will allow you the joy and blessings bestowed on FMC Owners changing belts. You will learn what it takes to get the Crank/AC/Alternator belts installed BEHIND the Power Steering Pump Belt.
I am changing to the 140 Amp unit shown here - http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/mopar_high_amp.html - for my FMC #120. Has double groove pulley already installed. It is a single wire unit, and has as much output as the HUGE L-N that came on FMCs. It will require a different mount arrangement, like this -
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-67-68-69-GTX-Big-Block-383-440-Altern... -
and cleaning up and removing the L-N regulator and wiring, and figuring what wiring to keep to keep the dash voltage and light working, but a competent truck shop should be able to figure that out.
I would sure talk with them about such a change before to get a "good feeling" that they can handle the wiring changes necessary. Otherwise look for a Speed Shop that does electric work. Those guys change external regulator alternators to one wire alternators all the time.
Will probably need a different length set of belts, but you should be putting on new ones no matter what you do . . . and carry a set of spares.
I'm sure there are lots of other FMCers that have a different idea about Leece-Neville Alternators for FMCs, and will soon tell you all.
You really should come to FMC 101 School before you strike out across the North American Continent. I'll show you a simplified belt set up for the FMC.
ZZZZZZZZZAAAAAPPP ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2015-05-11 7:10 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Whoa! just because your charging system is not working you should not condemn the alternator. Often the problem is elsewhere.
Bill |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Whoa! just because your charging system is not working you should not condemn the alternator. Often the problem is elsewhere.
Bill |
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Contributor
| Thank you so much for the guidance, Lou. I've ordered the carb to be delivered Wednesday. I'll be taking the coach to a truck repair shop to make the swap. At the same time, the alternator is not charging and needs to be replaced. Can I assume that the truck repair shop will be able to order a replacement alternator easily…or is it a specialty unit that I should order like the carb so they'll have it on hand. Best regards! - Grant |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | If/when I ever have an issue with my gigantic LN alt, I will be changing to the standard mopar alt like Lou. 99% of all dodge motorhomes in the 60's and 70's run them. It would be nice to get rid of the idler pulley, AC compressor, and run a standard 440 water pump down the road too. In time..lots of time.... |
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Contributor
| Thanks Lou…and Bill! Lou, your indication that an alternator that's different from the one that's currently installed might mean I'd need different belts has me thinking that I'll shoot for an exact replacement. I've had belt and pulley troubles in the past and carry 3 sets of the correct belts ordered from Jim Black before RVS closed. Remember how Jim used to warn about belts that were the right dimension, but the wrong profile for the pulley? I do miss Jim...
Bill, I'll definitely take your advice and have the truck shop confirm that the alternator is the problem. If it is, I would hope to replace it with a duplicate unit or have the current unit rebuilt.
Any thoughts you might have on my plans would be much appreciated. Best regards! - Grant
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | There comes a time in every Project . . . that you must shoot the Engine Ear . . . and go into production.
Get to the "repair shop", get it fixed, and HIT THE ROAD JACK !
Press ON ! Lou |
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Contributor
| Looking forward to hitting the road…with a charging system that charges and a carburetor that carbs! My friend, the busy Mini Cooper shop owner, was able to source an alternator and voltage regulator for coach 428. If the old one tests okay, I'll have it as a spare. On to the shop! Then on to the road! Best regards - Grant |
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Contributor
| Had a good week of repairs in Portland, Oregon last week. As Bill suggested, the alternator proved not to be the source of our charging problem. The alternator wasn't receiving voltage from the ignition switch. Two "parasitic shorts" we're also discovered and fixed. I was impressed with the service of Automotive Battery and Electrical (ABE) in Clackamas, Oregon.
May also have found a good shop to work on non-electrical issues...S&T Truck Repairs...which is just across the highway from ABE. They installed the thermoquad replacement Lou recommended (Thank you, Lou!), and the coach started and ran smoothly for the first time in a long time. I'll be taking it back to S&T next week to analyze and deal with an exhaust leak
I took 428 into S&T Truck Repair late in the day. The shop mgr had gone home. It was received by one of two remaining young mechanics. Within 5 minutes, they were both under the coach. "Look at this suspension, Justin!" "Wow! Never seen anything like this..."
Looking forward to having the coach in top shape. Thanks again, everyone! Grant
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Glad that you found a couple good shops to work with. They are out there but not always easy to find. |
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Regular
Location: Lavallette, NJ 08735 | Just a follow up: Everything was hooked up properly, but in 5 minutes, at no charge, a local mechanic pointed out no PCV valve. I bought one for like $3., installed in-line, and #75 was running 10 times better; and I was able to adjust mixture (no adjustment seemed to make a difference, prior). A quick timing adjustment, and HOLY COW! IT WORKS! I can actually accelerate up inclined grades! Now to get to those brake boosters, so as I can stop.... |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | This is in reply to MESSAGE #2697 -
DO NOT BUY POWERMASTER 8-47529 or 8-57529 ALTENATOR for your FMC ! The Powermaster Catalog and every sellers listing from it LEAVES OUT THAT IT ONLY FITS A SMALLBLOCK MOPAR ENGINE !
THE ATTACHMENT TAB FOR THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT STICKS OUT TOO CLOSE TO THE CYLINDER HEAD. Also the Mount Bracket (Reference Link) will NOT FIT either. I bought both of these items and tried to make them work, but they will NOT. Discussions with Powermaster "revealed" the fact that this alternator ONLY FITS a smallblock Mopar which was "missing" from their Catalog and On-Line detail. My apology to all. Lou #120 |
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Thermoquad Carburetor Question