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Contributor
| My son just replaced a flaky ignition switch then he started and shut down 3 times to check it without incident. The forth time the engine cranks over but will not start. According to the schematics there is an ignition fuse in the fuse panel. The problem is ...there is no fuse panel to the left of the steering column. There appears to be a circuit breaker panel behind the glove box on the passenger side but it is virtually impossible to get to. Has anyone had any experience on the post 600 coaches with changing circuit breakers or trouble shooting this type of problem. The coach has the automatic step system but as I remember the engine would not even turn over if that step was out. There is an override switch on the dash that normally had a light on when it was operating. The light no longer goes on but the step seems to be functioning properly. I will have him check power to ignition relay on the rear start panel when he gets off work. That the ignition switch should provide power to that relay both during start and on positions. I guess the ignition fuse on the invisible fuse panel could also be bad. Or the new ignition switch went bad and is not powering the ignition when start is selected. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated since right now the coach is parked on the road and will have to be moved shortly.
dicke |
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Veteran
Location: Soquel, CA. | Don't have a solution, but I can say that I have the automatic step too with the control on the dash. My coach has always started with the step down. I don't think there is a safety switch. But, you never know what PO's have done. The glove compartment (on mine) has a metal lining that comes out with a couple of screws. That gains access the he circuit breakers. But, I figured this out while looking for that elusive fuse panel and it isn't under there either. Just speculating here, but if there was an ignition fuse that had to do with the ignition switch, wouldn't it result in no cranking at all? |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | One possible failure to eliminate is the ballast resistor. It is a small white porcelain dual resistor about 1" x 2" x 1/2" normally mounter on the firewall on the generator side of the engine. It has two wires attached to each side. These resistors oxidize and burn out over time. The current flowing to the coil goes through this dual resistor.
Henry |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | http://dave78chieftain.com/Dodge_Electron02.html
You have a problem with the ignition system in the rear of the coach if you ask me...If your engine is turning over, but not firing, you need to test the ignition system in the rear of the coach. Break out the 12v test light and see whats hot and whats not while turning the engine over etc.. |
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Contributor
| Thank all of you for your fast replies...Spoke with my son and he reported that the voltage on the ignition switch starter and on positions both drop to less that 8 volts when he cranks the engine but the engine seems to be turning over fast enough to start. I have found that if the battery voltage drops below 10 volts the solenoid normally starts clicking and that same battery did have plenty of juice to start the generator. He is however going to try another battery. Since the only thing that both the on and start position on the ignition switch power is relays, there should not be any significant current draw on the switch. According to the schematic that I have, the ignition fuse only protects the ignition and not the start circuit. |
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Contributor
| My son said the ballast resisters look like new. I am try to get him to get some help and see if the ignition relay on the back panel activates when he turns the ignition switch on and to start position. On most older vehicles the ballast resisters are by-passed when the starter is engaged in order to furnish full voltage to the coil for starting. Not really sure that this engine has that feature. |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | I have the new resistors out of the box be bad. Test the continuity across each sei of terminals and you will know for sure.
With the battery voltage as low as it is, your voltage may not be high enough to trigger the ignition.
Henry |
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Contributor
| I will have him check them with the fluke...Thinking back 40 years, I guess I have seen new bad ones too. Because of the power step add-on, the switch wiring and somewhat random past replacement of wires, make it hard to use the schematics to their best advantage. Does anyone know where the accessory relay is located on the newer circuit breaker setup. It does not appear to be on the circuit breaker board. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Also check the voltage drop from one end of the battery cables to the other end of each cable. That is how we found the weak cable end that was causing a two volt drop in my system at one time. It was causing steering/cranking issues until I replaced the cable. |
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Veteran
Location: Oslo Norway | http://fmcmotorcoach.com/files/Manual/4-autoel.pdf
Crank on
Kjetil
#477 |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Stephen:
Steering issues? |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, too, George. Maybe Stephen finally got into that bottle of whiskey I left him.
That said and knowing him, there's an explanation forthcoming.
Terry
#846 |
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Contributor
| I am in Florida and my son is parked along side a road in California. He has texted me several pictures and if I ever get incrementally as smart as my smart phone I will post some. When the engine was running there were no steering problems??? but the cables look good according to my son?? With the exception of the auto ignition hot water heater and the flaky ignition switch, all was working well. For some reason the radio and some other things would not work unless the key was wiggled in a certain way. Also, on one occasion, about a week ago the engine kept running with the switch in off position. Cycling the switch of an on several times fixed the problem and the engine stopped. The problem went away but the importance of changing out the ignition switch took on a new priority. I have been using the referenced autoel pdf, but there are a lot of differences in the newer coaches wiring. That coupled with some changed wires and the options like the auto step system, makes the schematics considerably less useful. When the switch was replaced, the new switch with the same setup was changed out, one terminal at a time and pictures were taken. One anomaly was seen. The ignition white blue wire was hooked up to the accessory post and not the on/ign post. The wire to the accessory relay was hooked to the ign post. I speculate this might have been an emergency fix by the previous owner to compensate for the flaky switch. A wire was also run from the accessory post to one side of the dash auto step light. That light flashed when the step moved and stayed on when the step what out. That light stopped working when the switch was changed out and the bulb was found to be burned out. What is strange is that when the new switch was in place, the engine was started and stopped 3 times within 5 minutes, and the forth time an hour later would not start. The ignition switch was rewired with the white blue wire on the ignition post, but it still would not start. The original switch was put back in as removed with the same results. A check of the ignition relay shows that the white blue wire at the relay is getting 12 volts and all poles appear to be hot. It was not possible to test in the start position since my son is by himself. The ballast resistors have continuity. Anybody know a reasonable priced mechanic in the LA area. Also, if there is any of that whiskey left, I could sure use a drink. I purchased a second FMC 704 last week and am being sent the factory manuals that came with it. They should be in by the end of the week and maybe they contain updated information. I have not seen them yet but he referred to them a factory service manuals. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Your son can make a "remote starter switch" with some wire, and a simple toggle switch. One end goes to the starter motor solenoid, the other to your positive terminal on the battery. With the keyed ignition in the "run" position, he can then use the remote switch he made and turn the motor over from the engine compartment. If your ignition system is in working order, the engine will start. You do not need the ignition switch to be in the "start" position for the engine to start.
1) Your son needs to verify fuel in the carb
2) He needs to check spark when turning the engine over
3) Read the link I posted on Chrysler Ignition systems and how to test.
4) All the factory service manuals are on line, and they were posted for you on this thread.
Good luck!!
Dan
#850 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | byegorge - 2015-12-01 4:36 AM Stephen: Steering issues? Starting and "steering" both start with an "s". That's my story and I am sticking to it! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Close enough for the girls I go out with Stephan!
Terry |
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Contributor
| Good info...I guess I was not thinking of using a remote starter since I was concentrating on keeping it very very simple. Something touched is something potentially broken. But I agree using that would be very useful. These are just the things that we (my son) will be doing today.
We have only had this coach about a month and plan to drive it back to Florida in the spring. He has run through a full tank of gas that he topped off earlier and just added a few gal of gas just in case the gauge was not accurate.
I do have some trepidation with him messing with the carburetor. This has a recently rebuilt Holley and was running very smoothly. Maybe a spray of starting fluid would serve as a fuel check. He probably could also hot wire the ignition at the back panel. I will have to be very specific which wire to connect to Pos since the picture of the ignition relay differs from that shown in the pdfs. Also, I have not seen any PDFs that address some of the newer coaches wiring such as the circuit breaker panel vs the drivers side fuse panel. The accessory relay for instance is shown hooked to the top of the driver side rear fuse panel. I can't find the front fuse panel and assume the circuit breaker panel on the passenger side replaced that fuse panel. Where is the accessory relay that was hooked to it. I can find no information on the layout of the breakers nor can I find a good way to get at them. My son does not see any way to remove part of the plastic interior of the glove box to gain access to them...That is why I am hoping the manuals that I will be getting will have some of the newer schematics. If the newer ones are on line I have not been able to find them. Although much of the info is the same through out the production, there appear to be many areas that are not the same and not covered. I might just have him go buy a remote starter since they tend to be relatively inexpensive. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | To access the relays, there is an aluminum panel below the glove box that can be removed. In my case it had carpet covering it. If your son feels along the top of the panel just below the glove box he should be able to locate the sheet metal screws that hold it in place. He does not have to remove or go through the glove box. And, yes, the relay panel replaced the fuse block for all coaches from #646 and higher.
Given the current situation I would recommend a hot wire to the ignition and a remote start switch as previously described to get him to a better location where the problem can be fully resolved. My mobile is 916-425-7996.
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Contributor
| It appears that this thread is moving from an electrical problem to a fuel issue. Although it seems strange that an unrelated problem coincidently happened following an ignition switch replacement is somewhat strange, the engine appears to have spark, gas being furnished by the engine driven pump, with might be described as a lot of fuel pressure on the up side of the fuel filter. Although starting fluid was shot in the carburetor likely over the closed secondary jets the engine would not catch and acts as though it is not getting fuel since it does have spark. So it seems that either the primary float is stuck or fuel control value is not letting fuel into the bowl. I recommendation to my son was to whack the primary bowl side of the carburetor with crippling blows from the handle of a framing hammer. He has taken that advice into consideration but as yet the fuel starved carburetor has remained hidden under the metal can resulting in too many obstruction to whack it properly. The gas line and the filters appear to be free and have ample ability to pass gas at a reasonable pressure. The carburetor a spread bore holley 7855..Just seems to sit there and contribute little to the solution. It was supposedly recently rebuilt. but its appearance more resembles a rat rod rebuild with all the associated patina....Anybody have a spare 7855 holley. even if I get this one going I am going to keep one in reserve. |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | Please keep all opinions civil. I am almost 73 years old. I have worked on engines for a hobby for about 58 of those years. I have worked on Stromberg, Carter, Weber, Delorto, International Harvester, Briggs and Stratton, Clinton, SU, Solex, Rochester Quadrajet and Holley, plus some brands I am sure to have forgotten.
By far, I found the most tuneable carburetors are the Quadrajet, Holley, and Thermoquads.
I would consider them to be the beautiful young ladies of the carburetor environment. Like most beautiful women, they love, even thrive on attention. The Edelbrock/Carter are the fat girls with acne. They will feed you, wash your clothes, laugh at your jokes, not ask a lot of questions, etc. They require little attention and do not get that much uglier with age because they are already close to the edge. If you have a 'rebuilt(?)' Holley that looks down on its luck, you just may want to try the fat girl Edlebrock.
I would use the 1406, but a case could be made for the 1411. You can use the CFM calculator on the Summit website. 550 cfm should support a stock 440.
If you want a good 1411 or a Thermoquad (rebuilt by Mr. Thermoquad), I can help you, but I do not support the installation or tuning due to health issues.
I cannot understand how an engine that will not even fire with starter fluid can not have an ignition issue.
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Smell the exhaust while trying to start or after if only one there. It will reek of gasoline (flooded) or smell of nothing (no fuel). If it has 'spark' where does it have spark? The only place it does you any good is at the business end of the sparkplug which you can't see. If you have good solid 'spark' at the plug end of the wires and it smells of fuel it's flooded. Put in new plugs and try again. Good luck. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Yes pull one spark plug and have a look. The no start with starting fluid tells me the plugs are fouled or the secondary ignition is at fault. If the good spark is from the coil wire and the plugs are clean then the distributer rotor is next in line for replacement. I'll bet fouled plugs are found.
Carbs do not like heavy equipment such as hammers. Terry?? are you listening. Ha ha. Thinking of the thermoquad I feared the hammer story was going to go south fast. So again if it won't start with starting fluid pull a spark plug as too much fuel is most likely the issue.
Bill |
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Contributor
| Based on what I am getting from my son and an ex-Mercedes mechanic that so kindly stopped by is that there is adequate spark and no obvious smell of gas. When James was squirting starting fluid into the carb it was likely done under a lifted metal air intake cap over the closed secondary jets. I would think that the primaries would still suck enough starting fluid in to fire it off but I have seen that happen before. When you first attempt to start it...it acts like it is going to catch. The engine was running great previous to this, did not misfire, smooth idle, and 'good' power. I used to do a lot of computer tech support and many times I would hear a number of reported answers to my questions that were mutually exclusive and simply not possible or at a minimum not likely. This one of those cases. The obvious problem was electrical, but an error in wiring seemed unlikely since the engine did start and stop 3 times. The fact that the engine is getting spark tends to rule the electrical issue out. Having a carburetor mess up certainly could coincidentally happen but would be unusual without some warning signs. A lack of a strong gas smell will cranking indicates the engine is not getting fuel. The fuel pump is pumping gas at reasonable if not too high of a pressure (squirted in the face when feed line to carburetor was removed) and filled up a jar with gas while cranking the engine. So the supply end looks good. The most likely scenario is that the float valve is stuck. Fouled jets would likely have shown symptoms such as a rough idle or missing under load. I have not gotten a definitive answer if the accelerator pump is squirting any gas when the throttle is pumped. In the last day, I have looked at a number of potential replacement carburetors and most have different linkage for the kick down and throttle connections. Are the mopar 1406 or 1411 direct fit drop ins. What carb is best for fuel economy.
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Contributor
| I have not gotten a report on the plugs yet but will revisit that. I am an engineer(not the kind that drives the train) and after many years of work I became licensed to use a hammer on pesky problems. It used to work great on my holly 4160 boat carbs. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | You got everyone's attention on this one.... 
1) If you have fuel getting to the carb...
2) Spark coming "out" of the dizzy....
3) Spark plugs look good...
4) But engine still doesn't start and run....
5) =remove the carburetor, it's probably full of crap
I for one do not care to use Ether on gas engines...The ultimate "starting" fluid is gasoline, remove the air cleaner and pour some in, you get instant gratification.... |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey Dicke: if he's havin' trouble whacking it with a hammer, why not try a pool cue? Get right in there through all them wires and hoses and crap. 'Eight-ball, bank off the rotor cap!'
Henry: loved your beautifully articulated analogy of carbs to women. Hell, why not start a 'Carb-porn' thread replete with images of carbs from all over the world in various stages of undress?
I digress.
Hope you guys get this bitch started.
Terry
#846 |
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Contributor
| I agree with the gas vs starting fluid...Used to have a 671 diesel that became addicted to starting fluid. I don't want to get this coach started down that dark road. The only problem with using gas is that if you get a backfire it blows liquid out of the carb which quickly ignites on whatever it lands on. Been there and done that too. For some reason James does not have a working fire extinguisher. Hmmm. So I have been a bit reluctant to have him pour gas in. Told him to go get one and the gas pour should happen today. I understand that the carbs are a pain to get off, but it does not look that tough to me. I would think if the carb is truly "full of crap," there should have been some warning signs. I am thinking about having him remove the lower fuel bowl retaining screw and see what runs out. However I just know he will either lose or break the bolt washer/gasket. At least he has rebuilt carburetors before...5 or 6 times in 2 years on his Yamaha 4 stroke outboard. He probably learned a lot from his mistakes. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | I liked Henrys carb vs. woman too
The carburetors are not bad to remove, just have to work a little on each side then she's off.
Gas is perfectly safe when a person uses common sense. Only takes a little bit to get a reaction. I like to use a ketchup style bottle and pour gas down the primary vent tube directly into the fuel bowl, but if your having an internal fuel delivery issue, you may still need to put some fuel down the air horn to get a reaction. Keep a rag handy to smoother carb if needed. If anyone is not comfortable doing this, take whatever your working on to a mechanic. We do not need to hear about another FMC burning to the ground.
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | It's a Holley by golly, maybe the hammer is the right approach. |
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Contributor
| Well another twist....Took a spark plug out, hooked up the spark plug wire, and cranked the engine to check for spark. And guess what happened??? The engine started up with the plug out and he had to run back and turn the key off. Put the plug back in and hooked up the spark plug wire, turned on the ignition switch, again used the remote starter and it would not start. Bizarre!!! The only thing I can figure out is that the ignition circuit from a voltage standpoint is right on the border line of not working and the extra compression of having all plugs in draws it down enough that it is not consistently firing. Yet on another test with the spark plug installed, the plug wire did put out good spark to ground. Also, no obvious smell of raw gas. Since the plug was a little oily, he is putting in new plugs. The ones that he got seem to be a slightly larger plug with same threads and same diameter but he can not get them to thread in. So he is taking them back and getting a better cross reference using one of the old plugs. He used a 1975 Chrysler New Yorker 440 as a reference. Bluntly, if someone would have told me this story, I am not sure that I would have believed it. Maybe if he puts more air in the tires or vacuums the carpet, everything will start working...I will give an update once he gets the plugs in. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Mine can be finicky too. If I try to start it after its been sitting a week or more and I pump the gas pedal more than once or twice it floods. That's my signal to have another beer or two a let'er dry out a bit.
Sounds like you're makin' headway.
Good luck.
Terry |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | After starting again with a plug out . . . ELECTRICAL ! Short somewhere. HOT WIRE THE THING IN THE ENGINE BAY and get it home. Limp Home ! Lou #120 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | hemi354az - 2015-12-02 5:07 PM
After starting again with a plug out . . . ELECTRICAL ! Short somewhere. HOT WIRE THE THING IN THE ENGINE BAY and get it home. Limp Home ! Lou #120
I agree with Lou, you've probably got an ignition module that is dying. |
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Contributor
| Where can one get an ignition module...that will work with this system. Is there a recommended replacement for this module.
Looking at the schematic there is a by pass relay that connects to the coil. It appears to take the starter input and apply it to a relay that then connects 12 volts directly to the coil and by passes the ballast resistor. Most old systems did not have a relay to do this but directly ran a wire from the starter solenoid directly to the positive lead of the coil. Does anyone know where this by pass relay might be located. It is pictured in the schematic but I am baffled why it would be necessary since a wire would do the same thing. If it went bad that could explain the problem.
As I remember from my early car borrowing days, a jumper from the battery to the positive lead of the coil should hot wire it. I assume that would not cause any problems other than stressing the coil a bit. I not familiar with fmc's transistor ignition system and do not want to make anything worse.
My second problem is I don't want to take the chance of moving it and have it fail at very bad time in an area or place that it would not be safe. At the moment it is now off the road in a parking lot, which is considerably better than the emergency lane of the freeway or blocking a street in a high traffic area with no parking areas. Its home in LA is another gated parking lot that is simply more secure but is primarily for storage until I can move it to Florida. |
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Veteran
Location: Soquel, CA. | The problem with checking for the spark is sometimes you get a spark, but it is not a strong enough spark to start or run the engine. Learned that one the hard way. In that case (in my case) it was the Coil. Plugs are Autolite 23. In my experience, if you just ask them for plugs by the engine or by New Yorker or similar, they will give you the wrong plugs. |
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Contributor
| Tried hot wiring to the positive lead of the coil and still no start. I have to believe that a bad coil is a strong candidate. He will change it out today. Will any parts store ignition module work. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I would only change one thing at a time. That way you know what actually fixed it. Hold other parts in reserve. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | I am assuming that the coil change did not fix it. So Plan B . . . Any NAPA Store will have a ECM(Electronic Control Module) Part # LX101 made by Standard Motor Parts (which used to be Echlin) for about $30.
At any other Auto Parts Store, get a ECM for a 1978 Chrysler New Yorker with a 440 engine.
Don't worry about 4 pin and 5 pin. Just transfer in the new module and RUN IT ! All the Chrysler Modules for all the 70s V8s were essentially the same. Any of them will work.
Drive to LA . . . ONWARD ! Lou |
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Contributor
| The coil did not do it but we still have spark...put gas in carb and still no start. So we have spark and gas and it is cranking but still not running. We also have 4 different relatively new batteries that we have rotated in and the engine does crank over relatively fast. Next is rotor and cap. Then ignition module. Then distributer. Then carburetor. Then...Has anybody put a duramax in a fmc in a parking lot? Will definitely do one thing at a time. I cannot tell all of you how I appreciate your inputs and help. Your support for a new guy is nothing less than awesome. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I was about to list some of the parts for sale that I removed from my rig for the duramax swap. One of those is the complete ignition module/balast resistor setup with the mounting plate (in this picture): http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=127&p...
Engine was running great when removed, I'd take $40 for the setup. Not sure if it's worth the drive down from LA to Oceanside to get it.. |
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New user
| Replaced the ECM and Bam. Worked. Im finally running again! Number 653 is back on the road. Thanks guys for all the wisdom and help! When we bought this thing I didn't realize the support network that came with it!
I did use the 4 pin ECM rather then 5 pin. (it was 10 dollars cheaper) Not sure if i should exchange it with 5 pin now that I know it was the solution. |
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Contributor
| We are now a lot wiser on many things that I never thought we would have to know about. Kind of a crash course on FMC 2900R problems. I hope we will have the opportunity to return the favor with the knowledge we have acquired. You guys are terrific. ...dicke |
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | We have all been there. I just could not believe it was the carburetor even though it is a suspect Holley. Leave the carb alone!!! |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | We have not succeeded in solving all your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole new set of questions. In some ways, we feel we are confused as ever, but we are now confused on a higher level and about more important things. Oh I do miss the fun days working Military Advanced Technology for the Gumint . . . Press On ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2015-12-04 11:35 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | The Chrysler ignition module usually works or does not. Something that gets overlooked is the module must have a good ground. Sometimes you just have to remove the module and clean the mounting screw area of the firewall and module then reinstall it. I would think that may have been the reason for spark but no start. Before the module is tossed out I would plug it back in with a good ground wire attached and see if it fires the engine. My 76 3/4 ton 440 truck has a ground wire soldered to the module case. System works fine now. Bill FMCx5 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | This was a really good thread and I learned a lot here. Glad you got her rolling.
Thanks to all who shared what they know.
Terry
#846 |
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Contributor
| I agree with B. Sitton...Ignition modules tend to work or not work. Since we were getting spark, it seemed logical to put it on a less likely candidate list. After all, the only thing done was to change out an ignition switch with the battery disconnected. Since it started fine 3 times and there was spark at the plugs that looked good, not getting gas seemed reasonable. I did know that it takes a hotter spark to jump a gap in a pressurized environment...i.e. installed in the engine... (something to do with Paschen's law)...so a weak spark was a possible cause. Coil or ECM or wiring... However, my son did not note a smell of raw gas when cranking...Hmmm might be a carburetor problem. Starting fluid and gas in carburetor and still it would not start...probably not a carburetor problem. Coil positive lead and starting relay output lead seemed to mirror battery voltage on starting which tends to eliminate wiring and any relationship to the ignition switch repair. Replacing coil did not fix it. Replacing ECM fixed it. One has to wonder why the ECM choose this moment to fail. I also think that an internal or external grounding problem with the ECM is likely. I will say that the wiring schematics were frustrating since I was viewing the actual wiring from a cell phone picture and comparing it to the schematics that showed something different. The fact that many of you have been through similar problems was invaluable. Based on what we found I might suggest a new coil or ECM to Terry. While I was more familiar with the Chrysler 383 and 413 engines, they tended to be very tolerant of flooding. But I do understand how important it is sometimes to sit down, kick your feet up, and have a beer if the engine won't start. |
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coach 653 automotive fuse/circuit panel location