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Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-03 6:57 PM (#5977)
Subject: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Took the rear bumper off today - only took about an hour.

Guess I'm stuffing a Cummins in there

Looks like I got the engine and two 727's sold. Should help ease the pain some.

Cheers,
Terry
#846
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2018-11-03 8:06 PM (#5978 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Elite Veteran

500100100100100252525
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Remember to follow your build in this thread and create a build photo album so that the rest of us can follow and comment on the transformation.
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-03 8:09 PM (#5979 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
"...comment on"?

Should be mostly laughing, I figure with a healthy dose of, "I told ya so's"...

Terry
#846
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-03 8:43 PM (#5980 - in reply to #5979)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
I told ya so..
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hemi354az
Posted 2018-11-03 10:36 PM (#5981 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: RE: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

1001001002525
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
Always a good idea to start a major outside vehicle project in time for WINTER !
Especially on an ISLAND.
Aren't you "inside" the ARCTIC CIRCLE ?
Hope you've got "GLOW PLUGS" to get started every morning . . .
Hey, how do you know it is morning, if the sun never shines ?

Seems that Canada switches backward or forward or something with daylight Saving Time around this date. Maybe that will give you more time to work on a Cummins Conversion.
Old Navajo Indian saying - "Only the Government would think that if you cut 6 inches off the top of a blanket and sew it on the bottom . . . that you have a longer blanket".
We don't participate in any of the Daylight Saving Time nonsense. Last thing we need here in Aridzona is more DAYLIGHT !

80 Proof Vodka freezes at -16.7 ºF so stick with that wunnerful 100 Proof Blended Canadian Whiskey which is good to -26.6 ºF.
(https://socratic.org/questions/you-have-1-liter-of-100-proof-50-v-v-scotch-whisky-ethanol-c2h5oh-calculate-the-)

Stay WARM ! Lou #120

Edited by hemi354az 2018-11-03 10:37 PM
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-03 10:43 PM (#5982 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Yup, clock back an hour tonight; extra hour to sleep, hypothetically.

No glow-plugs required Lou, 3 or 4 cups of coffee does the trick.

I'm under a tarp shed, dry at least.

Terry
#846
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-04 8:12 AM (#5983 - in reply to #5982)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
I'll give you a couple bits of wisdom, some that I got from Eric before I started:
1. When you remove the rear engine bay covers, keep track of the shims by position, I used a sharpie and wrote the number for each bolt position on the flange.
2. Print out a large format of the wire harness from the fmcmotorcoach site and tape them together, you will wear this out...it can be challenging to find the wire colors, many fade all the way to white.
3. Use your stock radiator, just have it reconditioned. Get a much larger fan. Modify your fan shroud to allow removal without having to take the radiator out.
4. Figure out a way to get cold air isolated to the intake...cool intake air is free power and helps keep the engine running cooler.
5. Figure out your parking brake ahead of time and consider upgrading the prop shaft at least one size up...the tiny stock prop shaft is undersized for the 440...it's not suited to the torque of the diesel...I know some are "getting away with it"...it's not worth the risk..
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2018-11-04 8:35 AM (#5984 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Elite Veteran

500100100100100252525
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Be sure to take plenty of breaks! You do those sitting in a chair staring at the coach/engine/tranny as that is when and how you figure out your next step before you complete the currrnt step so that you can change the current step because you figured out a better way to do the next step!
Feel free to ask what others think is a good way to do something and then do it your original way! If one of those results in a good idea, all the other times are still worth it. I asked for and got lots of opinions, but I made the final decision as it was my coach and I would be living with the end result. But I did get some good ideas along the way.
Remember, you will get it done and travel the roads again!
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-04 10:51 AM (#5985 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Morning,

Just had a good laugh as I tried to type the word 'Morning', I inadvertently typed - 'Moroning'!

Then thought to myself that the word, if such a word existed - perhaps to describe ones activities while carrying-on being a 'moron' - could surely be applicable to what I'm about to attempt to do; namely, trying to stuff an unduly long and heavy engine into the back of one of these things.

What can I say, I've fallen in love with these old engines and the extra challenges involved in making one work in this application, only spur me further to 'get'er done'.

Thanks Lenny and Stephen for the kind advice. The words you both share here have not, nor ever will, fall on deaf ears.

I'm really excited about this project and am anxious to get it done while I'm healthy and have the facility and most of the resources to do it.

I'm a carpenter (finishing mostly these days) and am pretty good with wrenches. Can't weld worth a damn but have a decent little Miller 211 (w/spool gun) and plan to learn to use it. I learn quick but I'm not expecting 'Lenny quality dime-rows' results on any welds. If they hold, I'll be happy.

Game plan is coming along with some holes yet filled.

Primary components:

- 96' Cummins 12V with approx. 120 - 150 miles on it.
(stock intercooler, 4" exhaust, propane injection)
- 47RE trans (stock PCM with upgraded valve body and single disc TC. Should have the PCM & harness in hand today, otherwise trans may end up being a 47RH. Note: the overdrive section on the 47RE - 4x4 version - is about 5" shorter than the 47RH unit)

The engine will be pretty much stock. The 4" exhaust will give slightly better performance/economy and help keep EGT's down. The LP injection (see: http://badgerlandperformance.com/ ) will up my fuel-burn from about 75% to nearly 100%; therein, providing another 20 - 25% in power/torque, while lowering emissions substantially. This last part is important to me as the Cummins 12V, from an emissions perspective, is a dirty ole' bitch. This will help clean it up while providing useful performance and economy perks. It'll be fed from the coaches OEM LP tank.

- Pacbrake exhaust brake. This will be a costly addition but well worth it in terms of increased safety on steep roads - I do those - and reduced wear on the service brakes.

- Afco Hydrolic Brake lock:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=...
(this will serve in place of a park-brake and save some driveline length perhaps. I park on level ground generally and always chock my wheels. In an emergency stop on a steep hill, this baby will hold her still long enough for me to get my blocks in place)

Components to be determined:

- rear suspension upgrade(s)
- cooling system configuration (engine coolant, oil cooler, trans cooler) Note: I'm well aware of the benefits of the stock rad set up, that point has been thoroughly pounded out on this forum over the years; however, I'm seeking to lose close to another 200 lbs or so off the ass-end of this coach to compensate for the approximately 400 additional pounds that comes with the Cummins. I've already lost 160 lbs with my generator swap. There aren't many options to consider back there. The cooling system and battery(s) are two that I'm targeting.

Ever seen an FMC with a front grill? Just thinking out loud here...

Terry
#846





Edited by andy1canada 2018-11-04 11:00 AM
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2018-11-04 11:26 AM (#5986 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Elite Veteran

500100100100100252525
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
“Ever seen an FMC with a front grill? Just thinking out loud here...”

Yes, but if you do it you need to do a better looking job of it!
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-04 8:21 PM (#5989 - in reply to #5986)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
given the weight of the Cummins you really have to do air bags...I know Rico is pursuing it...he's emailed me about measurements for locating them.
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2018-11-04 8:51 PM (#5990 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Elite Veteran

500100100100100252525
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Agree on the airbags based on Frank’s description of the difference it made to his coach when he put them on.
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hemi354az
Posted 2018-11-04 8:58 PM (#5991 - in reply to #5990)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

1001001002525
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
Rear suspension airbag difference - Frank who ? What FMC # ? When was this report made ? Where was this report made ?
Thx for responding, Lou #120.
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-04 9:28 PM (#5992 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
That's a comparison: with air-bags, or, without (and it's - Frank Borrmann - with two 'r's and two 'n's ) another great FMC champion.

Terry
#846

Edited by andy1canada 2018-11-04 9:31 PM
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2018-11-04 10:10 PM (#5994 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Elite Veteran

500100100100100252525
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Yes, Frank Borrmann coach 645 with a Cummins and a mechanic by trade. The description was made verbally directly to me two years ago. It was a personal conversation.
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hemi354az
Posted 2018-11-04 10:24 PM (#5995 - in reply to #5994)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

1001001002525
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
Thanks for the response Stephan.
Lou #120
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-05 7:07 AM (#5996 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
It's not just the handling improvement that the air bags provide (which is substantial, particularly in the wind) but the support to the frame rails closer to the weight of the eng/trans to reduce frame rail flex(droop). I've driven my rig locally with no air in the bags "just to see"...it's not something I'd ever do on a trip and certainly not with any tongue weight on it at all...it drives like a mid-70's oldsmobile 88 with 250k miles, it takes your input as a suggestion, thinks about it, and then does something like it, in it's own time..
-
I don't think there is any reasonable way to move engine cooling up front or up top...I do think you could use custom(long narrow design) air to air intercoolers and mount them up top, do some custom tubing/fairings under the ladder that follow the body lines and roof mount them for nice clean/cool air...a lot of work but doable.
Make an inventory of every single item in the engine bay then make the determination of "does it have to be back here?" if not, then move it; getting the batteries and generator out of there are by far the biggest gains. Going with roof mount a/c's to open up all that space for relocating generators, batteries, hydrovac, etc... is a good option.
Wikipedia dry weights:
Cummins 1100lbs + 47RE/RH 200lbs = 1300lbs
Duramax 835lbs + Allison 330lbs = 1165lbs

That extra 135lbs will all be at the aft most position with the extra length of the inline 6 configuration so it will have the greatest leverage.

Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-05 7:18 AM
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-05 7:41 AM (#5997 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Morning,
Good points Len. I'm also going to try to maintain some semblance of balance back there if I can. I'm already down 160 lbs on the genny side and will be upping things another 400 or so to the starboard with the Cummins.

So, yes, the batteries (2 crankers for the diesel, or, one big mother) will be moved to the port side, hopefully ahead of the rear wheels and I may explore moving the rad to the genny side to re-balance the ass end some and perhaps improve access to the engine.

Another thought occurred to me as I nearly killed myself lifting the rear bumper off and carrying it out of the way: THAT MOTHER IS HEAVY!
I'm guessing maybe in the 80 lb range, so I'm thinking maybe a lighter version using the same SS portion but less steel reinforcing for towing might do something useful. I think what's there may be overkill for a 5000 lb towing spec. If 30 or 40 lbs could be lost and a reasonable tongue weight/towing capacity could be had, it would be worth it. There's a lot of steel back there.

Terry
#846
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-05 9:39 AM (#5998 - in reply to #5997)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
If you don't tow heavy you could certainly reduce that rear structure(you do still need to keep the two frame horns rigidly tied together though), moving the spare up front is also a great weight swing..
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dkarnath
Posted 2018-11-05 1:28 PM (#5999 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...



Extreme Veteran

1001001001002525
Location: Medford, OR
Damn....Crazy Canadian. Hey, start your photo album with the bumper on the ground!! Do a photo album AND a build thread with links to your photo album like Len and Stephen. You can do this Terry!!
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-06 7:18 AM (#6001 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
A couple other things I thought of:
1. I jacked my entire rig up 10" to do the swap...it was good...but 3-4 more inches would have made life a lot easier when using the engine lift. I'd shoot for 14", you'll need a couple of 20ton bottle jacks and some patience to get this done, it's important to get the coach level for taking mounting/angle measurements.
2. Supporting the rear frame rails when jacked up is critical, the stock frame rails flex in their normal usage, when you dangle the entire rear wheel/torsion swing arm down on them, then add the weight of a heavier drivetrain you can actually see them deflect. I used pole jacks at the ends of each frame rail (after I discovered this) and was amazed at how little force was required to push the rails up.
3. Taking drop measurements. Do it now. You will want to know how much change occurred, take a measurement from the bottom of the frame rails to the ground (before you jack it up) and then use it to compare to the after swap measurement.
4. The stock engine crossmember than incorporates the "donut" for the old stock muffler is an exceptionally weak design...suitable for the 440, risky for the duramax, not suitable for a cummins(IMHO). Cut it out and just install a straight piece of large square tube where you need it. It will clean up your engine bay and reduce the compromises you have to make.
5. Don't get tunnel vision on only using the parts/donor application that you have. The cummins was put in thousands of vehicles, when you need/want a different configuration of something look at parts for step vans, motorhomes, tractors, etc... A great example is the water neck on the duramax, it is specifically designed to allow hood clearance in the pickup configuration, it is not helpful at all when trying to mate up to the centered upper radiator position. I cut and welded mine to make a better configuration but if I had just searched some more I would have seen that the duramax in an van has a nice short straight water neck that would have worked perfectly...it just takes time to look for that kind of stuff and a willingness to spend $30 to save 3hrs of work..
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-06 7:56 AM (#6002 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Morning,

All good advice and thanks for the encouragement.

Funny Lenny that you mentioned about jackin' er' up to work on it. I climbed up the ladder on the weekend to see how much clearance I had above the coach and the top of my tarp shed: about a foot, maybe. Where I live, south Vancouver Island, it gets windy - real windy - so when I set up my 36 X 12' shed I anchored 6 or 8 of the poles with 12 x 12 concrete pier blocks and did a bunch of clothes-line wire cross bracing here and there. Hopefully won't have to mess with the shed. Could if I had to I suppose.

Will do a build thread but pls be patient as I don't get much time it seems these days. Getting an I-phone soon and contemplating doing a series of YouTube videos on the build. Might be cool, sort of like all being at a rally together, but with the prime difference being that when I say or do something stupid, or, offensive - you can't take a swing at me :-0

As an example we could call it: FMC-TV: Video #1090 - coach does wheelie; engine too heavy.

Brother in law on the mainland scored my PCM & harness for the 47RE yesterday. Hopefully got a doable trans-build solution sorted out now. If the PCM doesn't pan out I'll bite the bullet and get a standalone.

Have a great day!
Terry
#846




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LCAC_Man
Posted 2018-11-06 8:03 AM (#6003 - in reply to #6002)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

500252525
Location: Oceanside, CA
youtube is cool but requires a ton of time to upload even short video...I used a cheap "garage camera"...it only stays in the garage and I set the image size on it to be small enough that I didn't have to resize anything to post...I kept three or four sd cards around and made a dedicated folder on my computer(probably 4 times as many pics as what I posted) for the pictures...while I'm glad everyone liked my photo album that was just a side benefit...the in process pictures are worth all the effort, I can't count how many times I used them to keep from trying to put two things in one spot or now that it's done being able to go back and look at exactly what I did or where I located something..
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ricogomez
Posted 2018-11-07 8:32 PM (#6011 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: RE: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Veteran

100
Location: Houston, Texas
Hey Terry, the Cummins is loooong, so you would have to probably bolt the engine with your choice of transmission together and get it in there to determine where it could sit.


Our conversion has the pickup truck earlier version of the 12 V and a 2008 6 speed Ally
with a stand alone ECU and wiring.
a machine shop cut about an inch off the already short driveshaft & re- balance it.
thanks to that we were able to use a Ford F-350 aluminum radiator,
we had to move it back a few inches and weld new brackets for it at the bottom,
We also had the same machine shop make us an adapter to bolt the fan
to the engine without the clutch and to keep it very close to the engine to save room.

After the Chama Rally (it was VERY HOT) we decided to order
a 24” 10 blade plastic fan, and I have to say that it did the trick
and after a few hot runs around the Houston Texas área it keeps
the temperature at 195 f steady, the fan shroud had to be redone
as well but it was worth it.


After we finished the swap, we can see that we have much more
room to work on both sides of the engine.


We now have to cruise around 70 mph on 6th gear in order to keep
the rpms were they need to be, below that we must keep it on 5th gear.


Rico & Carmen
397
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andy1canada
Posted 2018-11-07 9:55 PM (#6012 - in reply to #5977)
Subject: Re: Bumper off #846 today, guess I'm diving in...


Extreme Veteran

10010010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Hey Rico,

Thanks for the update; all very useful information for me as I look ahead to stuffing my heavy old generator/pump engine into my coach.

Could you also share any details about any weight reduction you did in the back-end to compensate for the heavier engine?

Also, if you can cruise at 70, that tells me that the coach is handling pretty darn good. Did you add any weight to the front end and/or do any front suspension or steering modifications? And what about the back suspension, did you do anything else with it, ie. air-bags, rubber bushings (Timbren) or such?

Thanks again for your input.

We will meet at a rally one day!

Terry
#846
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