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Transmission Suggestions
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woodlandfarms
Posted 2019-01-17 6:13 PM (#6183)
Subject: Transmission Suggestions


Regular

252525
As of this morning I am the proud owner of FMC #86. The past few years have not been kind to her, but at one point an owner in Florida clearly took great care of her so there bones are super solid.

This said, I got a good deal on her as the transmission was out and it had been sitting for nearly a year in a repair shop. I have a ton of research to do but it looks like the engine and tranny are low miles. That said the sitting caused the tranny to lose its seals.

So if it where yours.... What and how would you deal with the transmission. I have mulled over a complete swap, either to diesel or LT1 but as we aren't going to be driving the wheels of of her we probably will stick with just a new tranny and maybe a throttle body at some point.

I hope this group provides a lot of support, I do have a ton of quesitons for sure.

Carl.
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hemi354az
Posted 2019-01-17 11:19 PM (#6184 - in reply to #6183)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Extreme Veteran

50025
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
Why was it sitting in a transmission repair shop for a year ?
Transmission shop where ?
Was it repaired at that shop ?
What did they do to it ?
Is the transmission installed in #86 now ?
Where is #86 now ?
Does #86 start, run, stop, go forward, backup, turn left, turn right, upshift/downshift thru the gears now ?
"That said the sitting caused the tranny to lose its seals". What does that mean ? Who said that ?
Is the transmission full of transmission fluid ? How do you know ? How did YOU check the fluid level ?
Be advised that the transmission torque converter will drain into the case if it sits a long time.
That "overfills" the case . . . and often makes the front or rear or both seals leak, as well as causing leaks where the dipstick tube sticks into the case, and/or the seal where the shift lever sticks out of the case.
Running the engine in NEUTRAL . . . NOT Park . . . will pump the fluid back into the converter. It only "pumps" in NEUTRAL and/or in "gear". It DOES NOT pump in Park. After you run it about 10-15 minutes in NEUTRAL . . . then check the tranny fluid level.
What does a low mileage engine and tranny look like in a 45 year old motorhome ? What does a 50,000 mile engine look like ? 100,000 mile ?
Please use the SEARCH feature of this WEBSITE for your ton of questions.
You are also encouraged to use the SEARCH feature at the other FMC Website as well - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FMCMotorCoach/info -
Please use the Manuals, Parts Books, and Service Books made available FREE by our Norway FMC Friend and FMC Owner of #477, Kjetil Bergflødt, at - http://www.fmcmotorcoach.com/index.html -
Most questions about the FMC can be answered by the information available at Kjetil's Website.
Please also review any Album Photos and Text by Duramaxer on this website, who is Kjetil. What he has done with the rough and barely operable FMC #477 is now the "Gold Standard" that we all aspire.
Are you a mechanic ? Work on cars ? Trucks ? Trains ? Planes ? Motorcycles ? Bicycles ? Go Karts ?
We can't make you a mechanic on this website. Lots of FMC History and repairs and updates and experienced FMCers here . . . but you have to help us help you.
Welcome to the Wonderful World of the FMC 2900R, A Model, J Model, . . . and Bus, and Transit, and M Model, and NASA FMCs, and extended FMCs, and raised roof FMCs, and . . .
First Lesson - DO NOT ASSUME YOUR FMC #86 IS STOCK and AS BUILT BY FMC IN 1973. It is 45 years old and has had "how many" owners ?
Press ON ! Lou #120

Edited by hemi354az 2019-01-17 11:25 PM
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woodlandfarms
Posted 2019-01-18 12:53 AM (#6185 - in reply to #6183)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Regular

252525
Hem345. Is it just me or was your response intentionally condescending or at least quite unfriendly. I am unsure if I am just being sensitive or if it was really your intent to make me feel like a simple question was not worth a straightforward response.

So lets assume I am wrong and I just mis-read your post. Let me start again. And let me say this clearly, I am coming from a friendly, non threatening space, and just want to glean as much information as I can. If this is not the website for this, I will move on.

I just purchased an FMC, #86. From the limited recent history I have I know it was taken to a repair shop for an oil change and on its way there it developed a serious leak in the transmission. When put on the rack, the mechanics said two things to the previous owner, the seals have failed and we refuse to work on it. And thus it sat for at least 8 months. From what I can glean, it was driven until 2007 steadily and then changed hands or was inherited and did not get much use.

I do know that in 93 the engine was rebuilt and that there is 20K miles on this rebuilt engine, and the same with the transmission. I do also know that sitting is probably the worst thing in the world for a vehicle to do so miles become irrelevant at some point.

So to my question, and then I will answer your questions. Can anyone point me to alternative transmission versions maybe a 518/46 swap. I would love to get an idea of what is involved and if it is within the scope of what I want to do with this machine. I have done a search, maybe my google fu is bad, but I have come up with only a brief mention of this being done.

Hemi354 - To your questions.

Why was it sitting in a transmission repair shop for a year ? - Answered
Transmission shop where ? Not relevant
Was it repaired at that shop ? No
What did they do to it ? Put it up on the rack, removed the driveline, put the driveline in a bucket and put the bucket of parts back in the FMC, pushing it into the back of a parking lot
Is the transmission installed in #86 now ? Yes, but no drive shaft
Where is #86 now ? Not relevant
Does #86 start, run, stop, go forward, backup, turn left, turn right, upshift/downshift thru the gears now ? I do not know. I am not willing to make things worse so bought the machine untested.
"That said the sitting caused the tranny to lose its seals". What does that mean ? Who said that ? Explained I hope
Is the transmission full of transmission fluid ? How do you know ? How did YOU check the fluid level ? More or less unkown. I know a lot spilled out on the way to the shop from the previous owner, but to test, as you said, the engine must be running and in nuetral.
What does a low mileage engine and tranny look like in a 45 year old motorhome ? What does a 50,000 mile engine look like ? 100,000 mile ? Uncertain of your question here.
Are you a mechanic ? Work on cars ? Trucks ? Trains ? Planes ? Motorcycles ? Bicycles ? Go Karts ? Mechanic? No. I am a person who has interest in mechanized vehicles. Someone who is capable of doing most of the repairs necessary on a vintage vehicle? Yes. For your edification, this will be my fourth restoration. My first was a 1979 Mercedes 450SL, my next was a 1964 Kaiser Wagoneer, and my last was a 1969 Dodge Charger. I am familiar with Mopar, know my way around a 727 and a 440.

I hope this gets us both on the right page and moving forward. If not, my apolgize in advance. It was not my intent to do anything more than try and gain knowledge from people who have already hopefully been there.
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B. Sitton
Posted 2019-01-18 9:23 AM (#6186 - in reply to #6185)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Extreme Veteran

100100100100
Location: Ignacio Colorado
Carl welcome! Looks like we have gotten to the point. You have a 440/727 still. I like your thinking of a 518 and have worked out what I think is the best way to get it in there. Using the 46RH 4x4 version then using most of the internal parts from the 47RH to upgrade to a heavier duty unit. I did loose the park brake on the transmission. Your new friend Hemi354 has been doing the machine work making the special pieces needed to get our driveshaft to bolt on and give a speedometer signal from a 4x4 transmission.
We use an adapter to bolt the small block case to the 440. Overall the modified overdrive with adapter is 2” longer than the original 727. I dropped the differential and moved it 2” forward in the coach. 2” was the maximum I could go. Independent suspension so don’t fret, the tires/wheels stay put. You can look at some pictures in the albums section. “Overdrive”.
I do not recommend the overdrive behind the stock 440. I made some changes to have the peak torque at a much lower rpm than stock. Changed the camshaft at bare minimum. Upgrade to 413HT heads makes a more durable package. I used a different set of heads for the first run but will change to the HT heads and exhaust soon. Single exhaust and NO HEADERS. Low end torque is the answer to running the overdrive. 2,200rpm at 65 mph. Engine won’t need to spin past 3,000 rpm. It’s almost a diesel ha ha.
Waiting for winter to subside to get more miles on the package.
I found a cast iron 2 barrel intake manifold and was running it but switched to an aluminum Edelbrock SP2-P 4 barrel manifold because it has very narrow runners and is better for low end torque.
I think this is a much easier swap than a total diesel conversion.

I would have come with questions too but Lou already dredged up the important info. Often a question is asked without enough background information. Always questions are asked that have been answered many times. There are answers to questions you haven’t thought of yet that can be learned by reading back through the forums. I know some new owners read through all the past posts just to learn more. I haven’t yet but it is a good idea. I learned a lot the hard way before I met the group.
Looking forward to hearing more of your FMC adventure as it grows.
Bill
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hemi354az
Posted 2019-01-18 10:42 AM (#6187 - in reply to #6185)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Extreme Veteran

50025
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
Hello Carl,
It is just you. As I said "you have to help us help you." I had no intention of being "condescending or unfriendly".
Why it's location remains a secret serves what purpose I can't imagine. Seems we are to assume that it is still sitting in the shop parking lot that refused to work on it.
Perhaps there is someone nearby that knows more about FMCs, or at least 727 transmissions, but don't know where "nearby" could be.
Using the SEARCH feature would have revealed there is no "magic bullet" or special transmission available on Amazon that fits the 440 big block trans bolt pattern and would fit in the space available.
Several 2900R FMCers have moved the engine rearward to use the 4-speed Allison (NOT an overdrive tranny) that was used in the bus/transits with discussion and pictures on this website.

Since you know your way around a 727 and a 440 . . . I really don't understand why you asked what you should do with #86.
It's 440 and leaking(?) 727 transmission (except the tailshaft, which itself is not special) are essentially the same as what was/is in your restored 69 Dodge Charger, if it had a 383/440 engine.
Any big town or city should have a reputable Transmission Repair Shop, that would have no trouble rebuilding the 727 in #86.
Whether or not they have a rack or some other method (jacks and jackstands ?) to get it high enough to get it out/in is a question you will have to ask them.
Seems all you have to do is work with them to get #86 to their shop.

There are many details of replacing the 440/727 engine/trans in a FMC with a diesel and suitable transmission in this website, and someone in the Central Valley of Calif, also on this website, put some "other" Chevy gas engine in a FMC . . . but they never finished it as far as I know. Those diesel conversions have for the most part been successful. But you decide if you want to put a $400 saddle on a $20 mule.
Please let us know if you get it out of the tranny shop parking lot. Many have shared their "tow" experience here and on the Yahoo Website.
Next Page, Lou #120

ps: Wonder if a fitting/hose to from the transmission fluid cooler came loose on it's way to an Oil Change shop ? Hmmmm . . .


Edited by hemi354az 2019-01-18 10:46 AM
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2019-01-18 11:34 AM (#6188 - in reply to #6183)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions



Expert

100010010025
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Carl, welcome to FMC ownership and to this group. Yes, it is mostly a very friendly and helpful group. As to the question of repair or change, my advise is first repair, use the coach for a period of time and then decide if you want make any changes to it. You have stated that you don't see your self and making long trips. With that as an assumption, my advise is to have the tranny repaired and then drive the coach for at least 15,000 miles before you consider making any redesigns, changes to the coach. In my opinion, for 98% of the owners the original setup is fine and works and is reliable without any special knowledge. If you leave it stock, the manuals apply. Once you change part of it, the manuals for that part no longer apply.

Bottom line for me would be to put some miles on it then you will have a good feel for what YOU want to change or not change. If you haven't driven it significant miles, how do you really know what is best for YOU. I put approximately 60,000 miles on mine before I decided to convert to diesel. It was expensive and took a lot of unpaid manhours. But I have also put 48,000 miles on it since the conversion so it is somewhat justified! Unless you are going to put miles on it, just repair and use it. Some people make a career out of just working on them, and that is fine, but I like to actually use my coach. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

Also, you are free to just ignore any posts that you don't like. All questions are allowed whether they have been asked before or not. If someone doesn't want to answer a question a second time, they don't have to respond either.

Website Administrator
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woodlandfarms
Posted 2019-01-18 9:21 PM (#6189 - in reply to #6183)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Regular

252525
Hey everyone

So thanks for all the replies. And Hemi, glad it was not something personal and i hope we can continue to exchange on a friendly basis.

I work a bit in the public eye so I apologize about my occassional secretive nature about my location, its habit. The vehicle is in the PNW in the Portland area. Stephen you probably know of it and looked at it. It seemed it had a lot of people interested but the seller was a bit of a dipstyck.

I got to speak today to the mechanic who went over the machine. The rear shaft seal is reported as the failure on the tranny, I looked at the transmission brake it it was coated in Tranny Oil. but it isn't as bad as everyone made it sound. It is leaking, and should not be driven any great distance, but it holds oil. Now what I did not know is that the exhaust manifold (Right side on a normal position engine) is broken, and weirdly. The exhaust is a custom two pipe setup. I thought as the exhaust pipe was sitting in the bedroom it had been removed for tranny work but it looks like it came out because of the broken exhaust. So I will start doing a junkyard call as well as look at Ebay. They can't be custom (they look like my old charger exhaust before I upgraded).

As rebuilding a transmission is about the same as buying something different with a possible OD, it is the reason I am looking at alternatives. I deeply regret having not abandoned the 727 on my dodge charger. It proved to be its weak link as I used that car as a daily driver for many years. I had it rebuilt 3 different times and it never held for more than 15K miles. Not a fan. That said, my experience with the 727 was with a long nose, is changing the shaft seal possible without a complete teardown on the shorts?

You guys are absolutely right, I need to focus on getting her on the road, then looking at upgrades. But as I am not a big fan of the 727 I don't want to blow $2K on a tranny that I will just take out and throw away at a later date. Rather spend the least amount getting this beast on the road yet set it for another 20 years of driving.

I have found a treasure trove of history with this machine. Books and books of repairs, along with the original operation manual and two service manuals. I have also found what I believe to be the complete list of owners (I had to sleuth but the interweb was kind and looks like I now know the machines owner list). I also have a bit of information on other FMC's as one of the owners left his research list of other machines he considered before buying this one.

Anyway, Thanks to you guys I have a lot to research and digest. I am happy to continue with answering questions about this machine now that I am feeling on better footing.

Hemi, and Mr. Sitton, for clarity, you are making for sale drive shaft adapters for the 518 / 46/47 upgrade?
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hemi354az
Posted 2019-01-18 10:11 PM (#6190 - in reply to #6189)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Extreme Veteran

50025
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona
https://www.ebay.com/itm/EXHAUST-MANIFOLD-for-1972-78-Dodge-Motorhom...
Right/372550638581?hash=item56bdbf9bf5:g:ZF4AAOSwpJ5cJnyb:rk:4:pf:1&frcectupt=true


or

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Exhaust-Manifold-Left-or-Right-for-Dodge-D-...

Lou #120

Edited by hemi354az 2019-01-18 10:14 PM
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dkarnath
Posted 2019-01-18 10:19 PM (#6191 - in reply to #6190)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Elite Veteran

5001002525
Location: Medford, OR
Welcome to FMC ownership. You said the engine/tranny look to be rebuilt with low miles possibly. I would fix the transmission leak and make sure everything is adjusted correctly, fix the exhaust, double and triple check all the mechanicals including some servicing, then drive it and figure out where you should go from there. Congrats!
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2019-01-19 8:06 AM (#6192 - in reply to #6191)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Elite Veteran

5001001001002525
Location: Oceanside, CA
I'll pretty much echo the recommendation to get it roadworthy again, if for no other reason than to put together a good "punch list" of what works and what doesn't. I whole-heartily agree with your position on the 727, I had them in 3 International Scouts, all three required more effort to keep leak free than they were ever worth and none gave problem free service. They are (IMHO) an average 1/2ton pickup truck transmission that is poorly applied to a 14,000-15,000lbs vehicle. Bill and Lou (just set a mental filter when he post, he means well...I think..) have done some cool work with the 518.
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2019-01-19 8:58 AM (#6193 - in reply to #6192)
Subject: Re: Transmission Suggestions


Elite Veteran

5001001001002525
Location: Oceanside, CA
To go a bit further there is an SAE adapter that can be mated to the back of the 440 that would allow the use of an Allison transmission you could at that point either stay with the older 545 mechanical Allison (no overdrive) or step up to a modern electronic Allison and use a stand-alone controller.
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