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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | I need to re-read all the discussion on wandering steering.... What is going on with the coach up front or in back or what??? This thing is all over the road and a real handfull to drive.
I have NEW ball joints, rod ends, idler bushings, rebuilt steering box. New tires on Alcoa wheels. Front end has been aligned.
Checked out the rear axle and suspension.
Just dont see what is going on here.......
Always best to email me at funcars4us@hotmail.com |
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| Mine did the same thing on the way home from OK..
MCR fixed it with their system..Cost $ 4,988..worth it.
fmc536 |
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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | Kinda wondering what they did....
Rod fmc507 |
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Veteran
 
Location: Canton, (Sixes) GA | Read all about it here.. some if not most of the work has already been done, cost should be considerably less http://tinyurl.com/yzeoj47 |
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Administrator
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado | I would never say anything against MCR, but there is open debate about whether Leslie's reengineering of the front end is really necessary or not. There are those who feel strongly the only problem is in the rear of the coach, not the front.
I had him do the Rubber Spring Stabilizer, which is a correction to the trailing arm in the rear. That, plus heavier shocks, F rated tires and a full water tank up front, solved any wandering problem I had in #110
the stabilizer is also the only FMC sanctioned after market correction to solve the problem, if I recall what Jim Black had to say on the topic.
Regards! |
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Regular
Location: Clovis, Ca | We had (have) the same issue.
After months of work and unmentionable amounts of money at RVS, the coach STILL was barely drivable. We found a name of someone in Gilroy that understands these things, but until now we are VERY disappointed in the way the FMC drives in a straight line.
We are doing an engine conversion right now which should lift several hundred pounds off the rear of the coach. After this we will evaluate. |
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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | I just cant imagine how Parnelli Jones and Mario Andretti raced each other back in the day.... It is very tiring to drive any distance at all the way it wanders. |
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Regular
Location: Santa Cruz, Calif. | Has anyone tried or used a Super Steer system? |
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Administrator
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado | FunCars - 2010-04-17 12:02 PM
.... It is very tiring to drive any distance at all the way it wanders.
I sometimes forget to mention the basics: You DO have the tanks in front full to the top, right? The coach has a heavy back end and is sort of Cantelevered. Weight in the nose helps the back end from wandering. (as i said, this is a problem in the back end, not front)
Get the $400 rubber stabilizers in the rear trailing arms and let us know if you dont see an 80%+ improvement? Regards! |
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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | Yes, I try to keep the tank full and any "extra" baggage up in the front seat. All new bushings, rod ends, ball joints.. So, I agree, time to put the rubber in the rear.......... |
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Veteran
Location: Canton, (Sixes) GA | Jerry; sorry to hear your coach still rear steers while going down the road after RVS tweaked it. When I got mine, it was a handful. A lot of it turned out to be me over-steering. I was too quick to correct it, found out it would straight itself out if given enough time. A light touch, a learning process. I ended up getting the MCR S&S package anyway, keep the water tanks full, run tires 80PSI front, 90PSI rear (mines a Diesel with 22.5 Steel wheels). Drives very good now. Finally got the wife to drive it last summer and she could not handle it, was all over the road, much too much sawing on the steering wheel. I made it look too easy. My sister who drove school buses after she retired had no problem driving it. Several coaches have additional weight up front, Jim W/617 put 450 lbs of steel plate behind front bumper and under the front (another Diesel). He has put well over 90,000 miles on his. Some have tool boxes built in behind the bumper. As Jim E mentioned above, the rubber spring stabilizer may be the key. As for Dale's query about the Super Steer system, since this is an issue with being a "pusher" doubt it would be effective.. It can and should drive like a large car or van. The solution will probably be a combination of things. I have wondered the same thing about Parnelli/Mario racing back then on the funky tires available at that time. They did suck one of the windshields out when drafting....Keep the faith. Hope to have the wife try it again this summer.. maybe in the wide open heartland. Denny/0890 |
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Regular
Location: Santa Cruz, Calif. | I understand the "full water" approach, but it is so impractical. We dry camp a lot. So what are we supposed to do? Siphon water out of a local puddle just to get home? It's not a good solution (pun intended). |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | My coach is 1046 so it is one of the later coaches. The interior has been remodeled so that I have one fresh water tank under the passenger seat and the other fresh water tank further to the rear on the right side. This places the weight of the water further to the rear than the tank placement of the earlier coaches with one tank inside under the seat and another under the front (the later coaches have the AC condensers in that location).
My coach also has the Allison AT545 transmission which weighs more than the original transmission and pushed the engine rearward about 1 inch. I did have an increase in tail end wag when making rapid lane changes or tight curves on two lane mountain roads after the conversion. Instead of being able to take a curve marked at 35 mph at 45 mph, I now need to be closer to the marked speed but can still be above it.
Even with the added weight and weight transfer in the rear and with empty water tanks, my coach drives fine.
As an example, last summer I attended the Rt 66 and Four Corners rallies. To get to the first rally in the time available, on the first day I drove from Dixon, CA to Evanston, WY a distance of 753 miles. With fuel and restroom breaks, that was a 14 hour run. I stopped because I needed fuel and because at that point I was getting tired. I did not stop because of any steering issues - I was just plain tired! I had been in thunder storms on and off from Salt Lake City to Evanston.
I contined on and had a great time at the Rt 66 rally and at the first stop discovered that the gas burner on my hot water heater had an issue so I turned it off. That meant that I only had hot water after the engine was run and a limited supply. That meant limited showers and I was alone so a single male generally has reduced water usage. No need to fill water tank. At the conclusion of the Rt 66 rally we (Jim W., Denny S. and myself) headed for CO and the Four Corners rally. Single guy, no need to fill water tank!
Spent two nights on the road getting to CO and the CG there. Fixed water heater and discovered that I was out of fresh water. Pulled out of my spot (elec, sewer only) and filled up and returned to my spot.
Why is this germain? Because I traveled a lot of miles without having any steering issues and probably 600 miles of it was with an almost empty fresh water tank. It handled well enough that I didn't realize that I was low on fresh water (gauge no longer works - a different issue!). Total trip mileage was about 4,500 miles in two weeks.
If I had any steering issues, I would not have made that trip!
Also, at some point between MO and CO I was looking at the trip statistics recorded in my GPS unit. To my suprise, the recorded maximum speed was 82 mph! Now I didn't intend to do that nor do I know when I did it. I suspicion it was somewhere in eastern WY or in NE as traffic moves along pretty well there, but the point is that the coach handles well enough that I didn't even realize that I was going that fast whenever I did it.
The steering/alignment history of my coach is as follows.
When I bought it, there was about 4 inches of play in the steering wheel. Lot's of play, but didn't dart or do things like that. The coach had other known issues that needed to be repaired and, as planned, I took it to RVS a week after purchasing it.
To correct the steering play, the steering system was evaluated. The conclusion was that one of the flex joints in the steering column, the pitman arm bushings and mounting holes, and two tie rod ends needed replacing/repair in the front.
All of that was done and the rubber bushings added in the rear and then the front and rear was aligned using the procedures as carried out by RVS and recommended by the FMC service bulletins. This included adusting the ride height in the rear to have a level coach in additon to the toe in/out of both the front and the rear.
The coach drove fine. In a few years, RVS advised replacing the lower ball joints which I had them do. It then steered worse than previously and I needed to "work" the steering as it didn't track straight on it's own. I took it back to RVS and told them that it now steered worse after the repair and that they needed to fix it.
After they checked all of the front end measurements, they said the caster was less than specified. I then told them to adjust it to the proper specifications. They then worked on the coach for half a day while I waited and they got all of the caster they could into the front end which put it just barely at the the specification (which I don't know what it is).
I left and was back to one handed steering and being able to move my attention to the scenery and talking to wife, etc., etc.. I am now able to remove my hands from the wheel and it will wander one way or the other but without any darting movements. This is with or without water in the tanks. There is still a little play in the steering which I believe is due to wear of the steering gear, but it is not enough to warrant repair/replacing.
While I had the work done by RVS on my coach, I don't think they did anything magic or special. I forced them to do a proper job of alignment after all of the many joints in the front end were evaluated and suspect ones replaced. I know of others that have done the same things themselves and also have a good handling coach. Yes, the rear weight bias of the coach provides a challenge and does not allow for things to be out of repair or adjustment, but I strongly feel that with those things done properly (and I am not the mechanic and can't tell you how to accomplish it) these are well handling coaches.
Mine is not the only one that handles well and if some can handle well, they all can IF properly and completely repaired and adjusted. There are all of the moving parts and then there are some rubber bushings as well. There is a specific procedure for the alignment process. All of those ducks must be walking in the same direction, but while involved, I do feel it is very doable.
This is an open invitation for anyone at either the Northern California Work day on May 8th in Gilroy or at the Mega rally in Minden, NE to drive my coach and evaluate it and compare it to their own coach.
It is my opinion that the coaches have not been poorly engineered. The engineers took the entire coach's various design factors (including rear weight bias) into their design and it works. When new, they were recognized as the best handling coach of its time! There is a coach in CA with 190,000 miles on the original front end and it now needs to have the front tanks full to handle properly. Which after that many miles, it would be expected!
Do we need to have a front end seminar in Minden?
Keep the white line movng,
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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | Thanks! After this info I tend to think the alignment was improperly done. I am going to take it to the shop ASAP to have them check that again. My coach #507 has NO play in the steering.. NONE... I have inspected the rear bushings as best as can be done without removal and they look fine. I do old car restorations, have built race car chassis and was doing all race-chassis set up s for three race teams.. But I admit I never checked any of the front end adjustments on the coach. I left that up to the alignment shop... And yes, it does drive like it does not have enough caster......... Maybe my fault for trusting the shop to do the job the right way.
I did give them the specs from the book and told them to use them as written... |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | FunCars - I did give them the specs from the book and told them to use them as written... Did you give the procedures as well as the specs? I have attached three Service Bulletins that I have. Note the writing in the margin. I do not know the source or correctness of the information in the margin. I would call RVS and MCR to clarify which "specs" are correct and WHY. Sometimes understanding the "why's" of something is more important than the "what's". The margin notes are dated later than the bulletin itself. There may be other. later instructions. I didn't see it in the printed material, but the proper procedures also include the instruction that when positioning the coach to actually do the the alignment, it cannot be backed up or allowed to roll back either in ANY amount. You must take it for a drive (25 miles+) and then pull forward to where it will be positioned to do the alignment and stop it without it ever rolling backwards or the alignment will not be correct - period! I hope this helps. Note: the file attachment did not work as the file was too large (more than 200K) so I will email it to you. They can also be found at this link: http://www.fmcmotorcoach.com/Bulletins.html |
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Contributor
Location: Napa Ca. | Yep, Looks like a copy of my specs.. Same hand written notes in the comments box.. I went over this with the guys that did it. Think I will dig out my alignment tools and see what I have as settings, then go back to the alignment shop and have a talk about it. |
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Regular
Location: Santa Cruz, Calif. | Your reply, Stephen, reinforces what I feel about the 509. I understand how weight will help tire contact with the road, but full tanks all the time would be a design flaw. It's just not practicle.
Almost every old coach I have restored had road wander. Sometimes it was bell cranks, sometimes it was tires. But the WAY the 509 moves is not tire contact. It is a non-stop correction problem. At first it would not return to center and so over correcting was the way to drive. Needless to say, my wife wouldn't touch it and she is an experienced driver with larger coaches. We have corrected that and now it is just constant wander.
So my first question is about the rear rubber upgrade. Is there a way to see if it's been done? I also discovered that I have no idea how many miles are on the coach. The odometer doesn't move. The Speedo works fine, albiet a little jumpy, but the odo is a nogo. So maybe my rubber is just shot. How can I tell?
I will get into the alignment and functioning of the front end at a later date. We still have a problem of the left front wheel braking way ahead of the rest of the system. It will lock up at any normal pressure and the coach must be driven very gingerly. We've had it apart several times, but still can't find the culprit. Once that is cured, we look into the front end wander problem. But in the mean time, I would like to check out the rear rubbers and see if they are a problem. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Dale, Come by with your car for the Work Day on May 8 at Eric's house and you will be able to look my coach over and then go home and compare that with your coach. The rubber bumpers in the rear reduce rear bounce and sway, but don't really affect front end wander. Those are separate issues. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | FunCars - 2010-04-18 4:09 PM Yep, Looks like a copy of my specs.. Same hand written notes in the comments box.. I went over this with the guys that did it. Think I will dig out my alignment tools and see what I have as settings, then go back to the alignment shop and have a talk about it. When you have worked through this, give us a rundown on what was found and what transpired. |
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Regular
Location: Santa Cruz, Calif. | I would like to come by for the work party but my availability for that day is in question. I believe there is a big product or service announcement that week. Google and Intel have booked every venue in the downtown area (which includes the convention center, 3 theatres, the smaller convention center, and the Event Center on the SJSU campus) for that week. And they are being very secretive about it. They won't tell us what to expect and won't even let us put it on our calendars. So I have the feeling that I may be working in a blacked-out-from-the-rest-of-the-world enviroment.
I did look under the 509 this morning and all I have in the rear are rubber bumpers, about 1in wide and about 3in long. So my 1st question is: who has the donuts or where do I get them? Can I install them myself or should I just go to RVS?
The second unfortunate news of today is that a large oak tree fell across the front of the 509 last night. I can't ascertain the damage until I can get a tree company to clear it out. It also nailed part of my 5th wheel trailer. Since the front tires were off while we are trying to find the braking problem, the 509 is now immobile for a bit.
Edited by Bair 2010-04-20 4:55 PM
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Where are all the messages on steering issues?
