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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Any engine diagnostic sleuths out there?
So I went from a quick starting and nice idling 440 six weeks ago to one that now won't catch. I hadn't tried to start it in six weeks because had I been tackling other issues, all unrelated to motor so this has me puzzled. The only repair I did to motor was replace the manifold vacuum hose to brake check valve.
I am suspecting electrical because she won't even cough with starting fluid and this coach turned over and caught on first turn of key after sitting for 5 plus years.
I put a spark tester on the plugs and there is spark but it seems weak. I get a flash when ign. is turned on and the same small, barely visible flash when turning over. The spark from coil to distributor is much stronger. Distributor cap and rotor both look fine. Plug wires are old but only one has a crack and it ran fine on these wires before. Plugs are new. Right now I am stumped.
Weather has been miserable in those six weeks with temps in teens with snow and rain.
This is a stretch but thought I would mention it. I had removed the Kwikee steps a couple weeks ago. I know there is a safety mechanism wired to the ignition which will retract stairs when ignition is on but don't think it would interfere with starting.
Vincente
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Elite Veteran
 
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Doctor Bill? |
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Veteran
Location: Soquel, CA. | There has been a bout of coil failures in FMC's over the last 9 months. Just saying'. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | http://www.classicwinnebagos.com/forum/index.php?topic=3424.0
Read up on this. It's a sleuth of knowledge!! |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | If the Kwikee step safety wire gets it's signal from the ignition coil or ballast resistor it could be problematic. #506 did the same thing, ran fine all summer, parked it and 2 months later no spark! Thanks Greg I think that is the only part I don't have. Oh well all the ignition parts are consumables anyway, caps and rotors always 'look good'. If you can see a problem it's really bad and has been for a long, long time. The LED test lights switch fast enough to see primary pulse at coil (-) (not affected by starter current). |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Well I hooked up the Kwikee wiring (didn't attach to coach) and got it to function but still no engine catch. The thing is, I do have a mild spark. What I didn't like was how weak the spark was compared to the coil>>>distributor spark, which was very impressive. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Pull one of the spark plugs. Is it black with soot? One thing about starting the coach and not really running it long enough to get it heated up is that after a few times doing this in a row, the plugs get fuel fouled. If they are fouled I would put in a new set. Pull a plug and get back to us with what it looks like.
No the step is of no concern. There is no safety switch that I am aware of. You can drive with it down and tear it off. The engine does not care as far as I know.
Only think about the ignition system, don't get sucked down the rabbit hole. Not referring to Stephen. One thing that is not in any other Chrysler ignition system is the engine relay the FMC has. It powers up the ignition system when the key is turned on. I have run into this relay having bad connections and dropping the system voltage. The engine relay also powers the charging system. I found my bad relay because the charging system voltage was out of spec.
Bill |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Bill, you might be on to something with the plugs. I did pull a couple plugs (new) a few days ago and they were fouled black-wet. Gassy smelling. I assumed it was because I had primed the carb many times (before I determined I had a bad fuel pump) and after I had the pump issue resolved I had flooding issues. Flooding issues resolved on its own and then it was all peachy. I probably dumped a whole lot of unburned fuel in it. And you're correct I didnt run it much. Maybe an hour, not much more. So I will get those plugs out but won't have any conclusions for a few days as I am waiting on new plug wire.
As for the Kwikee, it does have a safety switch. I think the PO upgraded. It is in the manual he left. Also when I hooked it back up to test the stairs retracted when I turned on the ign. Which prompted me to email Kwikee. They said it shouldn't interfere with starting, unless there is a short.
As for the ign. system, well before I posted here I went through many connections (coil, relay, distributor, etc.) and cleaned them up with sandpaper, steel wool. Unfortunately I don't have any fancy testing tools to actually test these units. I have four brothers who are electricians but they all live on the East coast!
So plugs and wires first and go from there. No rabbit holes, I'm claustrophobic. Seriously, I hate it when I have to work on drivers side engine! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | You can also try starting it with a remote switch, or screw driver arcing the contacts on the starter (with the ignition key on)and see if she fires. This would by-pass the "start" position in your ignition switch. If nothing changes, you need to start testing your ignition components on the engine. You said spark was strong coming out of the coil going 'in' to the dizzy...but not going out to the plugs. That's your start point. |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Great source! If it doesn't help now it is great reference for the future. Thanks for that! |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | I've uploaded photos of three of the plugs I pulled to my albums so you can see the condition. |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Bill:
Where is the ignition relay usually located? Thanks. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Please put some stock plugs in the 440. No fancy race crap. Pull them all and let the engine sit to dry out the raw fuel. Replace plugs and crank engine with no extra fuel to see if it fires. The kwiki step is inside the rabbit hole I mentioned. There is a switch on the dash that allows it to operate automatically when the door is opened or closed. Flip that switch and the step stays as is, out or in. No connection to the ignition system. Rabbit hole!
The engine relay is located on the passenger side firewall. I am sure it is pictured in all the coach manuals, owners, parts and service.
Bill |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Stock plugs means no platinum plugs either. Copper core yes, I don't care what brand. I do use Autolite in the FMC but have always been a Champion fan. I went to Autolite to help with fouling with the first oil sucking turbo 440 that came in #902.
Bill |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | I don't believe my Kwikee button on the dash is in operation anymore. PO installed his own by the side entrance.
I installed those plugs because I couldn't find stock. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Champion RBL-9 is the resistor equivalent of the original plugs. Her is a link to the owners manual specs pages. Scroll down a little way.
http://fmcmotorcoach.com/files/FMC_owners_owners_manual/FMC_Owners_...
Bill |
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Yea that's the one. Very popular in the UK but hard to find here. I remember Napa and Orielllys turning me away. I see some NOS on eBay.
This is why I went to the AR-13
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FMCMotorCoach/conversations/mess... |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATLAS-SPARK-PLUGS-24-SERVICE-SHOP-PACK-C32R...
-/310313080408?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item484019d658&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-CHAMPION-SPARK-PLUGS-8-PACK-RBL-9Y-...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-Champion-Spark-Plugs-RBL-9Y-Resistor-/281...
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Result.aspx?Ntt%3dRBL9Y%26Ntk%3dI...
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?keyword=rbl9y |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Holly crap! 2.5 mpg increase with just a spark plug change. Wake up and smell the roses! I was late to the FMC party but I was not born yesterday. I have this little gizmo that might save a few MPG. It is a 2x4 mounted under the gas pedal. It always saves money, but nobody wants one. I also have a sticker that says it increases horse power by 5. I might be able to get you a copy! any takers? Basics people basics. Do not follow the white rabbit down the hole. Most of the time the fix is easier than the path most taken. Understanding the system is #1. I only know what I know because I chose to understand the system. Understand what you have, what it can do, and do not try to make a mole hill into a mountain. Just drive the mole hill. Yes improvements are out there but most of what seems to come out as a new idea just costs lots of money and reduces performance. If a race motor was the key I missed the boat as I have a few 440HP engines sitting here wishing they were the answer. Fraid not!
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Contributor
Location: Prescott, AZ | Nice rant but the whole point in choosing that plug and showing you that link was not that MPG tidbit. In fact I don't remember that. The thing that stood out to me was that it was a plug used and recommended (for whatever reason) by Jim Black. From what I have heard he knows a thing or two about FMC Motorcoach and the company. Seeing that I am brand new to the FMC community I thought it might be wise and not a bad thing following advice from Mr. Black, even if it was hearsay in an Internet forum. Damn me for trying. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | I have a bulletin sent out by MR Black promoting the "Anti Lock Brakes" devices you found on your coach. I think Jim was a salesman not a mechanic. Snake oil!
Forums are for getting the truth out, not a place for someone to tell you what you "want" to here. You will go on asking others until someone tells you what you want to here. Sorry to have upset you and will not bother you anymore.
Happy to help those that want help, bedside manner is not on my to do list.
Bad Billy |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Count me among those who've followed "...Mr. Blacks' advice".
I'm still -walkin'-funny.
Terry
#846 |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Bill:
Sorry, my intent was not rabbit hunting but in my 35 year career working on other peoples cars I have removed far more aftermarket crap from cars than I installed. All devices were adversely affecting stock systems. You & I know how to install and test but I think you will agree from your past experience the vast majority of owners do not have a clue. How many times has the diagnostic trail been shortened considerably by "Oh by the way my husband just installed (insert device name) I got for Christmas. By the time you undo all the problems they created and find the original failure you are the bad guy. If they had fessed up to begin with it would have taken no time at all! Sometimes I forget who I am talking to, what do they know, what is their level of understanding of the subject, are they working on it or relaying messages to someone who is? Never intended to muddy waters just tossing out more possibilities. In the mean time I have no spark, I do have all the new parts though. Know any good and cheap mechanics? By the way I think the drivers side of the engine is the difficult side for me. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Hi George,
If you don't have spark plugs yet, pick up a set of Autolite 26's. every part store will have them. I'm 6 hrs away, otherwise I'd come over and help you get that pig running. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | George, are the new parts installed or in hand? What are the new parts? I see it ran fine? and 2 mo later would not start. Are you sure you have no spark? Check key on voltage at positive side of coil. Waiting for more info. I found changing the plugs on the driver side is easier from under the coach with a 5/8 wrench. If the plugs have not been out for some time a ratchet and socket work better. If you have the low style exhaust manifolds (#902) it has to be done from the top.
Bill |
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440 quit!
