| ||
![]() | ||
|
| You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register ) |
Moving radiator to front - thoughts?Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
| General Discussion -> Mechanic's Corner | Message format |
| Duramaxer |
| ||
Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Oslo Norway | Duramaxer - 2008-02-26 3:34 PM The usable area of this gap is 20 square inches if my conversion is right. It was not....it should be 200 square inches. I better stick to metric's Kjetil | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I will have to look into using the gap that Kjetil has identified. I never turned my head around and looked the other way! Maybe my coach will end up with a "smile" on its face! Barney, thank you for the update. I was wondering what the status was with your coach and was thinking of emailing you. As you are aware, adding thickness to a radiator doesn't porportionately add cooling capacity. As air enters a radiator the maximum difference in temperature between the air and the coolant exists. As the air passes through the radiator and gathers heat, the temperature difference diminishes along with cooling capacity so that by the time the air exits it is gathering significantly less heat from the last row of tubes than it did from the first row. A frequent cause of reduced cooling capacity of an aging radiator is not internal, but is the separation of the fins from the coolant tubes. If they are not properly bonded, the fins don't gather the heat from the coolant tubes and as a result don't transfer the proper amount of heat to the air that is passing across the fins. Based on the input of others, I am feeling better and better about making this change. To be able to open the rear aluminum panel and see the engine will be great as that is the primary reason for making this change (followed by no fan noise!) When the time comes I wil be starting a new thread about ram ventilation of the engine compartment without external scoops. This will be independent of any radiator placement. | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Just to ensure the fullest inculusion of thoughts, the following is a transfer of Louis Cruse's comments in the Yahoo Group site. I trust he approves. I do suggest that he contact the moderator to see about joining this site. There is an interesting discussion going on at the other FMC site. | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Quoting Leslie Hoagland: Lou - I basically concur with the comments and observations of both Louis and Leslie. I would like to see the string test done, not on the outside of the rear grill, but stationary on the radiator itself. It would be interesting to see the pattern. Like Louis, I have passed my hand behind the radiator and noted significant dead air area. I have not done an actual test, but that is one reason that I feel the front radiator arrangement will provide an increase in cooling efficiency - with ram air the entire core area will have a similar air flow rate. I would also anticipate either full or almost full shroud for the fans. If that is not done the fans will not create the needed air flow across the entire core under high heat generation conditions. I have thought of two possible rock guard designs: 1. 1/4 mesh hardware cloth with a few cross braces for strength (big rocks!). This would be cheap and easy to install, but ugly. 2. My next option would be a ribbed design. Imagine a number of ribs laser cut from 1/16" material that angle down in front of the radiators and curve to continue back underneath. These ribs would present their edge to the front and down. They would be spaced about 1/4 inch apart (slipped on 2-4 support bars with 1/4 spacers) to provide a good ratio of open area to solid surface and yet have significant strength. Thin material presenting its edge can be quite strong. If a large rock is encountered, it would be easy to remove the ribs, straighten or replace and reassemble. This is a modification of a very effective classification screen design used in some heavy duty agricultural equipment that I am familiar with. This would be effective and attractive, but significantly more costly. The next question that needs to be addressed is the copper tubes that pass between the front and rear. My initial thought is oval copper tubes about 2.5" high and 3.5" wide. They would be attached to the bottom of the coach near the center. Copper would allow impacts from rocks without breakage (would just dent) and some additional heat rejection. The diameter would have to be large enough to ensure unrestricted coolant flow (this could be boosted with an electric coolant pump). Your comments? | ||
| |||
| MCR |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Illinois | Stephen, etal - After reading this text, I am reminded that we hang the transmission cooler and oil cooler(gasoline engines) on the radiator between the radiator and grille. The transmission is cooled only thru the external cooler in our installations. The dust pattern on these coolers indicate a strong airflow that results in a trans. temperature of 150 to 160 degrees Farenheit on my FMC at 18,000 GVW / 22,500 GCW. This trans. temp. stays in the range even with the diesel coolant temperature varying from 180 to 210 degrees depending on the ambient temperature and the highway grade. Stephen, what would your thoughts be on stainless tubing rather than copper to minimize effects of corrosion and impact? HAPPY TRAILS - Leslie & FMC #0938 | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Leslie, it needs to be one or the other. I do not know the comparative metallurgical characteristics in this use enough to comment on the difference in expected performance or corrosion characteristics. I also do not know the cost differential. If cost is reasonably close, then personal preference based on strength, heat conductivity, etc. can make the determination. Either would be able to take a major beating and still not fail if of the correct wall thickness. A basic rubber lined SS pipe repair clamp or section of hose could be carried as an emergency repair kit if desired when traveling to remote areas. I believe that in the not too distant future (month or two) I will be able to conduct a "yarn test" (if I get lucky and can locate a suitable airflow meter it would be much better as it will be objective, recordable and duplicatable) of the air outflow pattern on a new, clean, freeflowing radiator without any other coolers affecting the pattern. While the results will not affect my decision as I just want to get the radiator out of the engine compartment for other reasons, the results will still be interesting and informative and may help others. Knowing the pattern of a clean radiator will let someone know if their radiator is starting to plug as a result of being a "filter" or not or if their fan is properly adusted or not. One thing that I haven't resolved yet is whether or not to retain the transmission cooler/heater that is in the bottom tank of the radiator. You have eliminated it, but my reason to retain it would be to provide transmission heating during startup and during cold weather. My transmission runs in the 180-200 degree range and I get good, smooth shifting at that temperature. When colder it tends to shift harder and late. We both have the Allison AT545 transmission. You are diesel and I am gas. | ||
| |||
| MCR |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Illinois | Stephen - I would tend to believe that the Stainless Steel tubing would be stronger with greater resistance to corrosion while the copper would have greater heat transfer and cost less. The cost differential should be not that great so I would tend to choose the Stainless Steel Tubing. If you are concerned with cold weather operation, mount the remote transmission cooler behind the radiator - I have never experienced harsh shifting when cold even when operating at 10 degrees Farenheit based on 30 plus years of operation. I notice no difference with the diesel engine which takes longer to reach operating temperature. All the Best - Leslie | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR |
Stainless steel comes in many different blends. The focus of the blends is to prevent rust, e.g. stainless! Yes, a number of them are "stronger" in that they won't bend, but that also makes a number of them brittle. In this case, brittle is not good. Copper also comes in diferent blends, but all of them are more flexible than stainless. I am tending to lean to copper for the heat transfer ability and also for the flexibility. If a rock hits it, it will dent but not break. If a metals person comes along with more information, I could be persuaded to change my mind. | ||
| |||
| starguy |
| ||
Contributor Location: Webster, Wisconsin | Stephen, I worked as a stainless steel fabricator for 8 years after I got out of college. I've cut it, bent it, drilled it, and welded it. As far as strength and corrosion resistance goes, nothing beats it. I never found SS to be brittle so your concern about it breaking if hit by a rock is unfounded. If hit hard enough it will dent. A couple of years ago I made a trailer hitch for my VW Golf TDI out of stainless and have had no problems with it. I didn't paint it and it looks just like the day I bolted it on the car. While reading the latest postings I visualized a tubing system running back to front that had fins on it like a base board heater in a house. If it could survived under the coach imagine how much heat it would dump! | ||
| |||
| Duramaxer |
| ||
Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Oslo Norway | Stephen, just a few thoughts on the options of piping material even if I am not a metallurgic expert either. I think I would have wanted stainless tubing. I really do not think copper tubes are more resistant to any damage from flying stones and such. A stainless hydraulic pipeline for instance has to be very resistant to pulsating pressure and therefore the qualities in use is not brittle, I would guess less brittle than most copper. Also one of the characteristics of copper is that it gets more and more brittle when exposed to stress from movement and vibrations. This is easily experienced if you bend a copper piece a few times back and forth it will be stiff and break. Also the corrosion aspect makes me think ss is far better. There is also a risk that you might have problems with electrolytic processes in such long copper lines circulating coolant, if so the corrosion could be very aggressive from inside out. There is aluminum tubing suited for this purpose also I’m sure. Corrosion resistant aluminum is widely used on modern vehicles, but you need some good source to help work out that option I think. Also you might want to consider running dual pipelines of smaller diameter than the 2-3” you mention since you are plumbing in parallel anyway. You will have some more resistance due to lager wall area but the same will give an upside in cooling. Smaller pipes will not be as low under your coach and the routing will be easier in both ends. Connecting hoses in each end will be easier and you have to come down to smaller dimensions for the radiators anyway. You’re the engineer so you have to do the mathematics on flow rates and pressure ;-) K-man | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | It appears that the concensus is heading towards stainless steel! Along with Greg, I have had visions of cooling fins the length of the transfer lines. I quickly put it out of my head to attempt to protect my wallet! I have also quickly considered dual lines as Kjetil has suggested. I hadn't thought of the improvement in connectivity at the front of the coach, but now that I think of it I does sound like a good idea. It would also add some of that heat shedding ability Greg thought of. I am going to investigate the addition of some fins to the line, particularly if they end up being SS as I have a local contact that is very reasonble when it comes to strange and different welding jobs. He could probably weld/brase longitudinal copper fins to SS lines. If I have four lines with some finning added, I would eliminate the third radiator for sure and just have two. That would probably allow them to be slightly larger and with the "smile slot" added the front radiator (of the two) could be larger. Ok, how does dual 2" SS lines each direction with some finning added sound as the final configuration? If that is it, I can start looking for a supplier. | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | The following is from Jim Black of RVS: At FMC we built a modified nose cap to accept a front cross flow Thanks for the additional information.
| ||
| |||
| Barney and Connie |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Kingsley Michigan | Steve and the rest of the gang--- Boy---you sure can tell when spring fever is in the air-----I am in the process of giving the kitchen a makeover with more water capacity under the belly there---but enough of that--- This is about Radiators and Engine access, noise, power and our general happiness---so first---an overview of our changes and the outcomes of tinkering. We had the idea of moving the rear swing spare tire off of the rear bumper to under the front where the auto air condensers were and it dramaticaly changed the weight distribution---- a big plus as the handling improved to less of the bucking bronco effect. Yes---we have the Timbren rubber bushings----which helped take some of the rock and roll out of the coach but moving weight forward with the spare tire was a more noticable change---hench--the added water tank for this years improvements. Next, The old radiator---what a piece of junk-----Brass has no intention of giving up heat---and four cores means 4 times the weight and inefficiency x 4. Now with the single core aluminum radiator we installed---there is no weight to start with (12 lbs.) and less coolant (2.4 gallons x 7.8 lbs) involved with ultra fast heat dissipation. Side note---We tried to use 4-14" with 2500 cfm each electric fans on the old brass hunker but just couldn't get they to pull out the heat----and while they were quieter than the stock fan--- it was like standing behind a jet when you were near the rear bumper---and that is when the idea of scraping the old radiator technology hit me. I will resurrect those fans for the next go around back there and that will eliminate the 8 x 30 x 32 inch space wasting projection of the fan shroud. Then there is that steel fan and it's idler pulley----another piece of junk that means to harm you all the time. First---there is it's weight---that works hard on your water pump bearings and belts. Then there is the horsepower required to spin it up---at a time when you need to pull the old gal out into traffic and you REALLY need the power--but don't need the increase in cooling just yet---Not Good! Newer lightweight fans---you know---on 1978 model cars and trucks---employed a clutch for that very reason. Now we have thermostatically controlled electric fans---for the very reasons of not taxing the mechanical (read "prone to fail") essentials of the internal combustion engines. Hence---the great lack of need of service of todays engines---but now I am ranting---- With the moving of the alternator forward--it becomes the idler (another loss of 10 lbs and a needless prone to fail area)---gives an open view of the distributor and the valve cover on the hard side---and also allows for a increase of amperage if desired. Have toyed with the idea of making a spoiler---you know--mounted up on top rear like the old muscle cars---or like the 73 fmc but in the rear above the window following the slope upward--to house a set of cooling tubes and fins for that high speed ram air cooling that Steve and others have talked about. This would be beneficial in getting away from the hot pavement plus shorten up the length and an exposed location of the hoses. Yes--it would be good for higher speeds only but that is when you are developing the most heat. At lower speeds--let the uncooled coolant from above go past the rear radiator/electric fans and back to the motor. I think it might even prove to add to the looks of the coach. Just a thought! Until then, I will go take some pictures of the new setup that includes the alternator repositioning---that was a major improvement for engine accesss on the hard side. If we used velcro (just joking) or hinges on the radiator-----it would take less than one minute to gain full access to the rear of the engine. We did spring clip the rear ladder and back grating to make the radiator easier to clean--- Your fellow thinker and tester likes to hear from you with all of your trials and tribulations: Barn | ||
| |||
| MCR |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Illinois | Barn and All - The proper Hollow Rubber Springs preloaded a mimum of 1/2 inch will minimize the pitch, roll, and yaw of the FMC Coach. The 4 HD One way Shock Absorbers will further minimize the coach motion. To those who may have become concerned - the idler and water pump, when properly maintained, will last the life of the engine (150,000 miles) as proven by many of our customers over the last 23 plus years. In fact, I changed my idler bearings twice and water pump once in 250,000 miles on my personal FMC Coach before going diesel. So not to worry just do the Preventative Maintenance. Trust you all will enjoy your FMC's this year and remember for every 10,000 miles you travel you will spend $5,000 for gasoline. Now unless you sit at home - the gas for the car, food, and motel will cost you much more than motorhoming once you have the coach. HAPPY TRAILS - Leslie & FMC #0938 | ||
| |||
| Barney and Connie |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Kingsley Michigan | Hey---We just had an idea-----If anyone would like the old radiator----We will be glad to send it to them for the cost of the frieght---or we will bring it to the GLASS rally in May. If we get no responses by then, Connie is going to make yard art with her newly found welding skills. Sorry, we already gave away the idler--- as the bearings were growling and I had replaced the need for it.--- Lookin forward to finding this a new home--Connie and Barn | ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | For those that prefer a rear radiator and mechanical fan, take a look at this film clip of dual, mechnically driven, rear fans. http://blip.tv/file/738493
| ||
| |||
| BigRabbitMan |
| ||
Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() Location: Cottage Grove, OR | The following is a copy of a post on the Yahoo site that I have copied here so that the infomation is included for anyone perursing this thread. "Heat Transfer Coefficient, usually a lower case k, in BTU/(hr.ft.degreeF) for certain metals: 304/318 Stainless Steel - k = 8 to 10 3003 Aluminum - k = 90 Yellow Brass Cu65,Zn35 - k = 69 Cartridge Brass Cu70,Zn30 - k = 56-60 Copper - k = 225 Someone on the "FMC Owners Site" commented that radiators are not made of pure copper anyway. (I could not get on that site for some reason to find who had made that correct comment). The Yellow Brass and Cartridge Brass were listed as being used for radiators. Additional consideration could be the surface heat transfer coefficient between the "coolant" and the inside of the pipe, and the outside of the pipe to the "air". There is a "coefficient" for those two interfaces as well, but someone else can look those up. Press on . . . Lou #120." | ||
| |||
| Barney and Connie |
| ||
Veteran ![]() Location: Kingsley Michigan | Good morning Steve and the rest; Hey--this thread is quite lengthy--obviously of importance to most---. On the "Heat Transfer Coeffieciency" of different metals---You are quite right that Aluminum is a far better chioce in this department--but you have to understand that this coeffiecient is for the same thickness of matterials. The newer radiators have a 30% or better reduction in tube wall compared to our old yellow brass dinosaurs. They also have tiwce as many fins attached to the core as our scrap yard wanabes. I finally got out and took some pictures of my high speed radiator cleaning set up--a process of moving the ladder via hitch pins and slide latches that takes less thatn 10 seconds to expose the back end--Will put in an album for the group--- Enjoy; Barn | ||
| |||
| Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 2 [25 messages per page] |
| Search this forum Printer friendly version E-mail a link to this thread |
![]() | Running MegaBBS ASP Forum Software © 2002-2026 PD9 Software | (Delete all cookies set by this site) |

Moving radiator to front - thoughts?